Living with Childlessness
Living with Childlessness
In this episode, MaryLayo talks to couple – Daniele & Tina Fiandaca, about their journey navigating through childlessness, and the impact this has had on their mental health. Daniele and Tina share about the hopes and dreams they had for a family, their experience of miscarriage, IVF treatment and grief, and their feelings about shame and societal pressure.
Concluding with a touch of spiritual wellness, MaryLayo offers a reflective tip from 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, inviting listeners to join her next time for more insights on mental health and spiritual wellbeing. Remember to follow and share if you found the discussion helpful.
For dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.
#MaryLayoTalks #BeyondTheSmile #Childless #InfertilityJourney #MentalHealth #EmbracingChildlessness #ChildlessGrief #Miscarriage
Guest details:
Daniele Fiandaca is founder of Token Man Consulting, an inclusion and diversity consultancy which specialises in engaging senior leaders and men with I&D and inspiring them to become inclusive leaders and agents of change. Clients include BNP Paribas, Channel 4, Colt, Hitachi Vantara, Merlin Entertainments, Monster Energy, Nestlé and Ogilvy. He is also co-founder of Masculinity in the Workplace, the only I&D event that is designed specifically to engage men. He is also an executive coach, author and agent of change - he was recently named one of the Top 50 Trailblazers in Gender Equality in the UK.
Tina Fiandaca balances her career as a part-time People and Culture Director with her passion for volunteer work. She dedicates her time to counselling at Childline and assisting as a Wardrobe Assistant at Smart Works. She lives in London, and embraces the city's diverse offerings. When she's not working or volunteering, you can find her watching movies, singing with the Some Voices choir, and dancing at daytime discos.
External Resources:
Transcript
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::MaryLayo: Welcome to beyond the smile with me,
Mary Layo, a podcast that discusses mental
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::health and spiritual wellbeing.
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::If you like what you hear, please do remember
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::to follow and share.
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::But before we jump in, there may be episodes
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::that are particularly sensitive for some
listeners.
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::And if that applies, then I hope you will join
me whenever you feel ready and able.
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::Today's episode can be particularly triggering
for some as I'm talking to Danielle and Tina
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::Fiandaca about navigating through
childlessness and its impact on mental health.
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::Our discussion covers issues such as
miscarriage in IVF, as well as cultural and
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::societal pressures.
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::My guests also share on what's helped them
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::along the way.
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::Let's join in the conversation.
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::Tina and Danielle, I'm going to start asking
you first of all about how long you've been
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::married and what were your thoughts and your
dreams about having a family back then when
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::you got married?
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::Tina: We have been married eleven years.
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::Daniele: She had to chat with me before the
podcast.
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::MaryLayo: I noticed.
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::I noticed.
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::Daniele: How long was it?
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::Tina: But we've been together.
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::We've been together 21 years.
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::So, yeah, we were together quite a bit before
we got married.
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::And actually we started trying for a family
before we were married.
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::So shall I do my hopes, dreams and you can
talk about yours?
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::I mean, ever since I was a young child, my, I
always, always felt like my destiny, my
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::purpose.
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::You know, for as young as I can remember, I
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::always wanted to be a mother.
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::And, you know, I did my work experience in a
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::nursery.
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::You know, I wanted to be a nanny.
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::And they're the types of jobs that I was
thinking about when I was younger because I
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::just loved you.
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::MaryLayo: Loved children.
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::Tina: Loved children.
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::And so I just couldn't have, I just couldn't
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::imagine my life without children.
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::And it wasn't something that we instantly
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::talked about until we were quite far along in
our relationship.
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::But I think it got to the point for me.
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::And when we started trying, I think I was
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::about 39, so in my late thirties, and I just
knew that, you know, we just had to have
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::those, those conversations.
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::And so, you know, to be honest, the marriage
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::wasn't that important to me, but actually
family was.
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::MaryLayo: And what about you, Danielle?
Similar?
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::Daniele: No, not really.
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::To be honest.
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::I wanted kids because Tina wanted kids.
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::I'm actually, we'll go on to it, but, you
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::know, we have, we have had a very good life.
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::And so I think for me it was more what Tina
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::wanted and she wanted kids and so therefore I
wanted kids.
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::So I don't think there was a big, there was
never a big kind of searching or need.
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::It was more what she needed, we needed.
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::MaryLayo: Right. Makes sense.
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::Happy wife, happy life, as some say.
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::So then how long into your relationship, then?
Because I know you were together for a long
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::time beforehand, before you got married, and
you've been married for a long time, how long
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::did you then start to think that actually
starting that family, having a family, might
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::be an issue?
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::Tina: Well, I think.
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::I mean, I fell pregnant naturally to begin
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::with, and I think we must have been probably
trying for a year, maybe a year and a half.
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::So I know that I was kind of in my early
forties by that point, and sadly miscarried at
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::about ten weeks.
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::And I think at that point, I just felt that
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::getting ourselves tested to understand, you
know, kind of where we were would be the most
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::sensible option, just because of, you know, I
did feel a time pressure, you know, as, you
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::know, lots of women will, and just to
understand kind of where.
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::Where we were just seemed like the sensible
thing to do.
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::It's quite hard taking that step because you
don't know what you're gonna, you know, kind
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::of the answers you're gonna receive.
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::And I remember the fertility specialist, the
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::doctor, saying to us that if we were gonna,
you know, really stand any chance of becoming
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::pregnant again, you know, then we would need
to go down the IVF route, which is kind of
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::where we kind of started.
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::You know, when I felt ready, I think it was
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::probably like another, you know, eight months
after the miscarriage, we then, you know, in a
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::privileged position where we could try ivF.
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::MaryLayo: And can I ask if, you know, like,
when you started the IVF treatment, did you
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::actually share or, you know, did you open up
to others around you at that time?
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::Tina: Yes. Our immediate family and our very
good friends knew that we were going through
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::IVF the first time we went through it.
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::I didn't tell work.
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::I'd actually had been given a sabbatical.
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::I'd been in the business for ten years.
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::So I took.
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::I mean, it's a very, very short amount of
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::time.
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::I think I was given a month.
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::So I took that time off to do the first round
of IVF, but I wasn't, or we weren't public
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::with everyone about it.
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::It's more because there's so much expectation,
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::you know, on going through that process.
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::I just didn't want everyone to know.
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::MaryLayo: Yeah, of course.
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::Tina: More what to do with the questions that
people ask you.
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::So, you know, at that point, we didn't tell
everyone that we were going through it.
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::MaryLayo: So you've, like, you've already
mentioned about the expectations of others.
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::Have you, like, what kind of pressures did you
have at that point or up until that point from
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::others around, even if it's friendship groups
or families?
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::Did you feel the pressure and was there
pressure on you, would you say?
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::Tina: I mean, there is a. There is pressure
and not necessarily put on us by other people
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::on purpose, but people do.
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::Of course, the natural thing to ask is how
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::you're doing.
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::And at the time, we had other things that were
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::kind of going on in our lives that were quite
difficult.
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::So there was a lot that was happening to us
that kind of did actually sort of take over
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::the process.
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::But I think, yeah, it's definitely the
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::questions, you know, the drugs that you take
and how that makes you feel.
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::And, yeah, I mean, it can be a difficult
process to go through, and then the added
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::pressure of, you know, what is going to be the
end result.
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::It's just a really stressful process to go
through.
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::Daniele: I think the pressure is more
societal, I would say.
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::I don't think we've necessarily had anyone.
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::You see the movies where people could go, oh,
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::when you're having next.
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::I mean, I never felt that kind of pressure
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::from those around me, but I think it's just
societal.
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::And I think to a certain extent, when I said
that thing about, you know, I think we have
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::to.
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::We do have to live in a world where it isn't a
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::default to have kids.
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::So I, you know, I totally appreciate, you
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::know, for Tina, it was so important, but for
me, it was.
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::I also.
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::I also understood that, you know, that not
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::having kids has to be an option as well,
because at the moment, it does feel like the
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::pressure I see on Tina was also this societal
pressure that said, as a woman, you need to
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::become a mother, and that's really hard.
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::MaryLayo: Yeah. And it's interesting that you
mentioned about the society pressure or
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::societal pressure, and the reason why I
mentioned about even the pressures around you,
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::because even in my culture, and I don't know
if it's a cultural thing, but I come from a
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::nigerian background and it is normal or it's
usual for people to ask, as soon as you've got
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::married, so when's the kids?
You know, and then when you've even had a
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::child, when's the next one?
So there is a strong expectation from, could
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::be family, extended family, or the culture
that people are from to even, like, bend
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::towards that expectation and really feel it,
as well as the societal pressure, like you
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::mentioned.
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::Tina: Yeah, I think it's 100% right and I
suppose when you're going through that
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::process, it's stressful anyway, without other.
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::Are the people putting pressure on and the
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::expectation and stigma and shame that comes
from even having an assisted pregnancy or IVF
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::or miscarriage and the stigma and shame of not
having children.
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::I mean, that is what affected me for so long,
you know, for many years.
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::And I, you know, and so, yes, I mean,
massively, I think you are 100% right.
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::And there's lots of kind of cultures that
expect that, and, you know, yeah, there's
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::stigma and shame around.
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::Around it.
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::MaryLayo: And, Tina, you mentioned about even
the stress of going through ivF, the
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::treatment.
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::So did either of you.
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::Did you know about.
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::Did you know that?
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::I don't know.
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::Like, I myself know it's stressful, you know,
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::going through IVF.
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::I know, you know, because of what I hear.
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::So, I guess, did you almost, like, expect it?
And if so, to what extent were you able to
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::prepare mentally or did anything help you to
prepare mentally?
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::Tina: I mean, I just took it day by day.
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::Like, I literally kind of just couldn't think
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::too far into the future, although you do.
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::And so I think, in a way, you know, because of
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::other things that were kind of going on, I
think we just sort of almost disconnected from
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::the process.
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::It was just this sort of process that we were
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::going through back then.
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::You know, it didn't even occur to me to, you
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::know, seek out counselling or help to kind of
go through that process.
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::It just wasn't even on our radar to do that.
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::Daniele: I think going back to the point team,
not many people talk about doing IVF.
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::I don't think a lot of people do know just the
stress that goes through.
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::And then I think when people.
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::I think when people are successful, they're so
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::relieved, they just focus on the child.
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::When people aren't successful, I don't really
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::want to talk about the process.
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::MaryLayo: Sure. Sure.
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::Daniele: I think the reality is it's not
talked about enough.
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::I think a lot of people go into it not really
understanding just how hard it can be.
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::And no one's got.
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::No one can tell you, no one can give you a
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::definite percentage.
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::That's really hard.
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::It's a case by case basis.
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::But there is a, you know, once we've gone
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::through it enough times, the team had felt it,
we did make a decision not to keep on going
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::because actually, the trauma and the stress
related with it just wasn't worth it for the
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::chance of success.
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::And I think a lot of people do go into it.
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::I mean, also the financial burden is
significant.
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::As Ed Tina said, we're privileged, but I dont
think we spent as much as someone told me they
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::spent the other day, because I was like, wow.
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::The amount of money that some people have to
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::invest because of their own circumstances is
mind blowing.
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::Its a significant investment and those that.
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::Tina: Can invest it is just incredibly hard if
you're waiting for IVF as well to even kind of
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::get going on that journey.
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::It's just so difficult.
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::And I think, as you say, people just don't
talk about it.
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::Or of course you go into the process and in
some respects you have to think positively and
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::you have to think, I'm going through this to
have a baby at the end.
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::But that's not the reality for some people.
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::And it's incredibly difficult for those going
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::through IVF to see people like me that did go
through it and sadly didn't have a child at
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::the end of it.
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::That is a really difficult thing to manage.
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::MaryLayo: Sure. Yeah. You know, you made a
really good point as well, Danielle, because I
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::think it was even just yesterday.
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::If it wasn't yesterday, then it was the day
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::before when I read, and I'm not going to name
the celebrity, they basically shared how
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::they'd had quite a few rounds of IVF that were
unsuccessful, then they then happened to have
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::a child naturally.
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::And you wouldn't, well, I, you would never
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::have known.
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::And it's only, and it makes you wonder, would
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::they have shared that if they didn't have a
child?
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::Daniele: You know, it was a Kardashian, wasn't
it?
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::MaryLayo: One of the Kardashians.
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::Daniele: It was.
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::I think they had five rounds.
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::Five rounds, actually.
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::MaryLayo: Yeah, exactly.
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::Daniele: You're right.
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::100% right.
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::They wouldn't have talked.
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::They wouldn't have talked about it.
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::MaryLayo: Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's something
that people generally, and I can understand
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::why, but it's not talked openly enough.
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::And number one, it's a difficult topic to talk
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::about and therefore that doesn't help.
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::But it's so sensitive, so personal, so raw
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::that people don't talk about it.
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::And the few times it is shared, I guess it's
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::because it's a closed topic.
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::So, for example, I might know of in my close
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::circle someone who's going through it because
they've shared with me, but it's not going to
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::be public.
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::Not that it should be public knowledge, but
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::you know what I mean.
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::It's not something that is openly talked
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::about.
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::And I guess if it is because there's a
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::successful outcome at the end of it, then
people would tend to share.
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::They're more likely to.
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::Daniele: I think they're more likely, but I
don't think everyone does.
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::And it's not one of those natural things you
say, oh, it's a successful IVF.
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::I mean, obviously, you know, I would say that
I've kind of worked it out with a lot of
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::people because they have twins.
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::I mean, you know, people have twins these
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::days.
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::You know, there's a high likelihood that's
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::IVF, but, yeah, I'm not sure that everyone
does, even then does share it.
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::I mean.
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::MaryLayo: No, no, you're right.
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::You're right, baby.
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::Yeah, yeah.
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::Daniele: I mean, why would that.
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::I mean, to say, why would they, you know, you
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::think it's like, it's just, it's.
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::Yeah, I mean, it's just like, you know, it's
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::kind of, you know, a child shouldn't be
defined whether they were IVF or not.
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::So to a certain extent, I can understand why
you wouldn't necessarily, necessarily share
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::it.
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::MaryLayo: So then how.
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::How did, like, how did not having children
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::affect your relationship or even other
relationships?
275
::So, like, Tina, for example, you mentioned
that those who, for example, those who go
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::through IVF, and they, you know, they, they
success when having a child.
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::It, it can be awkward, um, for those who
haven't.
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::And then there's that.
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::Daniele: It's.
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::MaryLayo: Yeah, it's, it's, it's difficult to
manage, like you said.
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::So how.
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::How did, how did not having children affect
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::your relationship as, and other relationships
around you?
284
::Tina: Um, I mean, I can talk about, you know,
particularly with my friends who became
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::pregnant.
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::You know, it's just such a weird feeling
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::because you feel happy for them.
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::I don't think, you know, I've had any friends
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::that sort of found it really easy to get
pregnant, but, you know, I felt happy for
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::them, but there is so much hurt there from me,
and, you know, it never.
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::I mean, now, actually, when.
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::When I. And I have friends who, you know,
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::still fall pregnant, I'm honestly happy for
them, and it doesn't affect me in the same way
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::that it did, but I think, you know, it has to
taken me a long time to be able to get to
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::that, to get to that place and some work.
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::But, you know, I remember when my friends
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::would tell me they were pregnant.
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::It's like a kick in the gut punch that it just
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::physically, physically hurts.
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::And, you know, in some respects, it can change
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::friendships, but, you know, like any
relationship, you work at them.
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::What I do wish that I'd done is actually
talked to my friends about how I was feeling
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::and, you know, the advice that I would give
for friends who are pregnant and have friends
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::who are, you know, trying to conceive is just
to acknowledge that, you know, it's hard for
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::them to, um, just that acknowledgement rather
than pretending, you know, things are all good
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::and rosy and ignoring the fact.
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::I just wish that we talked about it more.
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::MaryLayo: Sure. Sure. I guess.
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::Is it that elephant in the room kind of.
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::Tina: Yeah.
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::MaryLayo: Scenario?
Yeah, kind of.
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::Daniele: It was a bit about society because
you reached out to me because I wrote that
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::question on LinkedIn.
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::Right.
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::MaryLayo: Yeah.
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::Daniele: Which is that dreaded question, which
is, do you have children?
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::You know, which is a very triggering.
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::I mean, it's not, you know, I don't think it's
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::massively triggering for me, but it's.
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::I know it's triggering for Tina.
321
::So, you know, just hearing that question does
just, you know, I do feel it and I go and I
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::just want.
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::And I just think, why have we created society
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::where we think that's an okay question?
Yeah.
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::And we think that that's the foot.
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::And it's always, it tends to be couples in the
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::first place.
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::And I've also got to be, you know, I have used
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::the question, but more because I want to
connect with people that haven't had children.
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::Right.
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::I actually, often, I actually want them to say
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::the answer is no. So I can straight away say,
I feel with you, we don't have kids either.
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::So, you know, but, you know, I always have to
be careful because I am triggering them by
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::asking that same question.
335
::But I'm slightly using it for a different
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::reason and I sit with it.
337
::So I've had to, even throughout this process,
338
::I had to think about when I use it, how I use
it, but I'm not, definitely not using it.
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::You know, I'm using it because, you know, you
know.
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::Tina laughs because, you know, she's an
introvert and I'm an extrovert.
341
::And, you know, I think the one thing I would
say is, you know, when, when you're, when your
342
::friends have kids, you kind of lose some of
them.
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::You know, it's kind of like, I'll see you in
18 years, you know, and again, I'd rather
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::focus on the people that I think have done a
wonderful job with us.
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::So I think, you know, let me talk about who,
you know, if you know, someone that, that has
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::gone through IVF and hasn't been successful
is, you know, one is being considerate,
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::understanding them, but also making them part
of your child's.
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::Life, you know, that's what I would say that
we actually have.
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::And we do talk about it, you know, usually if
someone says to us, do you have kids?
350
::I'll say, we have a, we have a life full of
children, which we do, you know, I'm
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::godfather.
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::I can't even remember godfather to at least
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::two, three.
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::But also, you know, we, we've.
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::And it's really interesting if we look at the
nigerian culture, you know, you've got, within
356
::your culture, you've got, you know, and I was,
you know, one of my friends, he's nigerian,
357
::he'll call me his uncle, you know.
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::But what's interesting now, I now start to see
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::that with our friends that they won't call me.
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::I'm not their godfather.
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::I'm not their friend.
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::I'm their, I'm their kid's uncle.
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::Doesn't matter whether maybe godfather or
nothing.
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::So all of a sudden, that kind of being part of
that wider family.
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::So for me, we've gone away for Easter with the
same group of people, two of my best friends,
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::and we've gone with their family.
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::And in all honesty, they feel like our family.
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::For me, yes, they might be in blood relation,
but they've really embraced us and that allows
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::us to spend time with those kids, be important
to those kids.
370
::And, you know, that, that gives you that, you
know, it's not quite the same sense of
371
::purpose, but it does give you an element of
purpose, you know, in order to, you know, be
372
::there as a support function for other
children.
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::Tina: I think.
374
::I think the thing that I would add to that is
375
::that, you know, when our friends included us
in their kids lives, that's what we wanted.
376
::There are people within the childless
community that will just find it too difficult
377
::to do that.
378
::So, you know, it should be led by the person
379
::and not, you know, allowing that space for
them to come to you.
380
::But just don't stop inviting them to things,
which is what, you know, can happen is like,
381
::oh, well, actually they don't have kids.
382
::They're not going to want to come to our kids
383
::birthday party.
384
::Well, actually they might, but they might not.
385
::It's their choice.
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::Just keep inviting them.
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::MaryLayo: You know, Daniella, you mentioned
about, and this was, this came through in your
388
::LinkedIn post about not.
389
::Or being thoughtful.
390
::When you ask someone, do you have kids?
Because of it perhaps being triggering.
391
::So what would you say then?
Like, how would people who are interested in
392
::finding out, because it is a natural question
to ask, especially if someone's of a certain
393
::age or if they're a couple, what would you say
they should?
394
::Or is it the delivery, how they say it?
What would you ask that question?
395
::Daniele: I hate to say I'm going to say
something really controversial, but it's often
396
::kids, the only people that kids are
interesting to those around them.
397
::So I actually think using kids as your first
frame of reference is quite lazy.
398
::Anyway, I would actually just make it more,
what's your passions in life?
399
::Or what did you get up to last weekend?
Because what you do is you end up finding, you
400
::know, and it's really tough.
401
::Listen, it's really tough for parents.
402
::You know, I'm sitting here going, you know,
you lose a friend for 18 years, but they also
403
::lose you for 18 years.
404
::You know, there's that element.
405
::I did a panel recently on male friendship and
how hard it is for fathers, specifically in
406
::terms of staying connected with their friends.
407
::So, you know, I think the reality is being a
408
::parent is really hard.
409
::And so I think if you, you said, you know,
410
::what do you do for fun?
What are your passions?
411
::What did you do last weekend?
What are you doing?
412
::What are you doing coming out on holiday?
Kids will naturally come into the
413
::conversation, then they can talk about their
lives, what their lives are like.
414
::And so all of a sudden they can bring that in
in a way that's actually, I'm generally
415
::interested what they want to do.
416
::And so when they ask us that question and kids
417
::doesn't come up with the answer, we don't have
to, you know, even think about whether we've
418
::got kids or not.
419
::So I think for me, it's just understanding,
420
::just make asking more open, more considerate,
more, I'm going to say more interesting
421
::questions.
422
::Do you have kids?
423
::Is not a very interesting question.
424
::MaryLayo: Sure. It kind of reminds me of, oh,
gosh, like, I'm seeing a lot of synergies here
425
::with, and I know it's not exactly the same.
426
::Just, I guess in terms of being a single
427
::person and not mean married and someone who
is, let's just say married and got, you know,
428
::and got kids, you know, there's a lot of, you
know, like in terms of your friendship groups,
429
::they kind of change to your network, being
other single, you know, people and, you know,
430
::that kind of stuff.
431
::So I'm seeing, I am seeing the, I am seeing
432
::the synergies here.
433
::And just in terms of feeling that there is a
434
::difference, you know, between the two camps,
if I can call it that, you know, there's a
435
::massive difference.
436
::Daniele: I mean, our new friends don't tend to
have kids.
437
::I mean, that's the reality.
438
::And you do gravitate towards people that don't
439
::have kids.
440
::I mean, we've had a situation not to know what
441
::it is, but we meet people that don't have kids
in six months, they seem to get pregnant, and
442
::it's kind of like, okay, we've lost those,
we've lost those friends again.
443
::And the reality is we do, I mean, it's too new
a relationship to expect us to be important to
444
::them when they have kids.
445
::So, you know, I think it is a reality.
446
::It's why we've, you know, a lot of our new
friends.
447
::And again, we do know that, you know, gay men
can have kids, but a lot of the gay men that
448
::we know don't.
449
::So, you know, to a certain extent, I think
450
::what's been nice is it has opened up new, new
types of relationships, new types of people in
451
::our lives.
452
::But let's not, you know, let's, you know, as I
453
::said, a lot of my close friends are still in
our lives.
454
::They're just in our lives less or differently.
455
::MaryLayo: Yeah, sure.
456
::Sure. So, like, what kind of, like, did you
457
::get any.
458
::So, like, Tina, you mentioned how you didn't,
459
::it didn't even cross your mind.
460
::It wasn't on your radar to get counselling.
461
::So what kind of help or support did you both
or individually get along the way or what have
462
::you found to be helpful and supportive to you?
463
::Tina: So I, as part of the fertility clinic
that we did our first round of IVF with, when
464
::I miscarried, you could have one free
counselling session.
465
::And it just totally put me off because they
took me into a room that had all of the photos
466
::of the babies that had been born in the clinic
in the room, which you can imagine was
467
::incredibly triggering for me.
468
::So that was my first experience, experience of
469
::counselling.
470
::So I never, I didn't, I didn't go, I didn't go
471
::back to it.
472
::I think, in all honesty, we kind of went
473
::through that whole process, kind of dealing
with it in our own way and just kind of
474
::getting on with it, disassociating from it to
a certain extent.
475
::And it wasn't until I started a foundation in
psychotherapy and counselling, and that's the
476
::one thing that I focused on.
477
::And I wrote an essay basically on
478
::childlessness.
479
::And actually, it really helped, really helped
480
::me kind of heal through that, through that
process.
481
::I think the other thing that I started to do,
mainly when I knew that we weren't going to
482
::continue that we'd kind of made the decision
that, right, this is it now.
483
::I did start to look into some of the networks
that are out there, of which the one in
484
::particular that I looked and became a member
of was Gateway Women, started by Jodie Day,
485
::who is.
486
::She's pretty much the founder of the childless
487
::movement for many years.
488
::And that really helped.
489
::And what that helped me understand was how
powerful being seen is, because I felt what I
490
::was going through.
491
::What we were going through was so invisible
492
::because we don't talk about it.
493
::That when I entered a network where I was
494
::reading all of these different experiences
where I could see myself in them, it made me
495
::feel less alone.
496
::And, you know, never, ever underestimate the
497
::power of being seen.
498
::And that's why I chose to, once I'd written my
499
::essay, was actually to write a blog post about
my experience, so that in one way, it was
500
::being seen again.
501
::People could understand the experience that
502
::we'd been through.
503
::Daniele: And if you've got show notes, we
should definitely send you Tina's blog post.
504
::MaryLayo: I was just making a note to jot that
down.
505
::Yeah.
506
::Daniele: So it's a beautiful story, and I
think.
507
::I think the reality is, you know, we've also,
because of.
508
::I'm sure I can share this with Tina, going
through the menopause and elements around that
509
::we've been doing couple of couples
counselling, and I think it's also got us to
510
::talk about it a bit more.
511
::But even before this session, Tina wants to go
512
::through the questions between us first and
talk about stuff.
513
::But to be honest with you, I not.
514
::I don't know where I am on my grief journey
515
::because I've never really grieved.
516
::So, uh, but, you know, I've had quite a few
517
::people telling me I probably do need to go to
therapy.
518
::Uh, but I watched a film, what was it, two
months ago, called?
519
::Nowhere special.
520
::Nowhere special.
521
::And it even just.
522
::It's getting me now.
523
::Uh, and it was with all fathers, and it was
me, because I do a lot of work within, uh, the
524
::masculinity and the male space.
525
::And it literally broke me.
526
::I can't just.
527
::How I can tell.
528
::MaryLayo: I.
529
::Daniele: And so I don't know whether.
530
::How much of that was losing my brother and he
531
::was the guy.
532
::It's just such a hard story.
533
::Oh, you can tell emotion.
534
::It's about guys dying of brain tumour.
535
::My brother died of a brain tumour who has to
find someone to adopt his son.
536
::MaryLayo: Right.
537
::Daniele: It's just.
538
::It is such a wonderful.
539
::You know, it's one of those really weird films
that, you know, it's just so you can tell the
540
::impact on me and quite a lot of the other men
there.
541
::Actually, it was actually done by a good
friend of us called Patrick, part of the
542
::mandem, which is stuck by Francis Augusta.
543
::And I think for me, just seeing, for me, the
544
::power of just seeing those men together,
watching a film like that, talking about it
545
::and talking about being fathers, for me, it
was beautiful.
546
::But at the same time, I probably do need to do
a bit more therapy myself and explore it.
547
::You know, that's.
548
::That's the reality.
549
::This stuff stays with you, right?
550
::MaryLayo: Yeah, yeah.
551
::I mean, like, it's.
552
::It's interesting, but I can.
553
::I do resonate with what you're saying just
554
::because, like, on it, I guess on a day to day,
on a day to day level, I tend to think I'm
555
::okay.
556
::But then when there's certain topics that
557
::comes up, you know, especially when it comes
to bereavement, I realise, oh, my gosh, I'm
558
::not okay, you know, I'm not altogether on
this, you know, as I. As I thought.
559
::So you're right in terms of it stays with you,
but it's just suppressed and Sony every now
560
::and again, it might come out of the box, you
know, if you let it, unless you intentionally
561
::go out, you know, and for example, to explore
through counselling, etcetera.
562
::Yeah, it's something that I've noticed even
for myself.
563
::Sorry, what are you going to say, Tina?
564
::Tina: Yeah, what I was going to just add to
that is that the thing about childless grief
565
::is that it's not something that you can see.
566
::It's not like it's a different.
567
::It's a different grief to maybe one of your
relations dying, because people will know that
568
::person.
569
::But when you're grieving something that you
570
::wanted but haven't managed to have in your
life, it's a really difficult grief to
571
::understand.
572
::And going back to Jodi day again, she does it.
573
::You can find it on YouTube, a talk about
disenfranchised grief and how society kind of
574
::looks at disenfranchised grief.
575
::And again, it was like, when I listened to it,
576
::I was like, wow, you know, I can really see
my.
577
::Myself in this because it's something that,
you know, you're just grieving something that
578
::you've never had and never will have.
579
::So, yeah, it can be complicated, but I do.
580
::Daniele: You say you never had, but, you know,
I think the reality, there is a difference in
581
::that.
582
::You know, for Tina, it was physical, you know.
583
::You know, the grief is different, I think, for
me, you know.
584
::You know, the bit we.
585
::So I think I can't which one it was.
586
::But when you had an atopic pregnancy, which
she had to have removed.
587
::And do you know what?
In all of this, the thing that I remember the
588
::most is sitting there in Paddington and
waiting.
589
::Why haven't I had a call?
Why haven't I had a call and going?
590
::And the doctor asked me to sit down.
591
::That would.
592
::That's, you know, that's what I remember is
the doctor sitting me down and saying, tina's
593
::lost a lot of blood, but we've managed to save
her.
594
::You know, that's.
595
::So for me, actually, in the whole process,
596
::Tina's here.
597
::So there's an element of me going, do you know
598
::what?
That was the bit that, for me, was the most
599
::horrendous, because it's not.
600
::You know, and, you know, I've always.
601
::And it's been hard for Tina in my.
602
::I'd never.
603
::You know, I've had a very, very.
604
::Because I could.
605
::It's not.
606
::That's my privilege.
607
::It's not in my body.
608
::Until anything existed, it didn't exist in my
609
::head, whereas for Tina, it was very different.
610
::And so that's something we've had to both be
611
::understanding for each other because we've had
very different experiences.
612
::MaryLayo: And, you know, what can I come back
to almost like, the role of gender when it
613
::comes to someone who may be affected when it
comes to childlessness?
614
::Because there is that.
615
::Let me call it perception, but I think it's a
616
::general understanding that women are far more
impacted than men or there's that prejudice
617
::around gender, basically.
618
::So I guess, in particular to you, Danielle,
619
::just your thoughts in terms of, like, how.
620
::Daniele: I think there are lots of men that
grew up thinking that their purpose in life
621
::was to have a child.
622
::MaryLayo: Right?
623
::Daniele: And I. And I wouldn't.
624
::And I wouldn't.
625
::I wouldn't never want to minimise the impact
on them of that.
626
::So, yes, there is a physical element, but
where you believe your purpose is to be a
627
::parenthood, I don't think it matters what
gender you are.
628
::The impact is the same.
629
::And if anything, it's more likely because we
630
::know that the father one won't necessarily
talk about it, but also, if they did talk
631
::about it, probably wouldn't be believed in the
same sense.
632
::Exactly to your point.
633
::But I definitely know of situations where
634
::fathers have.
635
::Just for them, they've had just as much.
636
::And I don't know, but I'm guessing, you know,
the people that do, you know, I don't know how
637
::many fathers are on the childlessness
community but I'm guessing there's not that
638
::many.
639
::And if they are, they fill in the out group
640
::and so it's much harder for them.
641
::Tina: There are groups now for men.
642
::I think that, you know, men are beginning to
643
::have a voice, which is only a positive thing
because again, it's that, you know, being seen
644
::in different experiences, it can make you feel
less alone in it.
645
::And, yeah, I mean, you know, the gender, I
think in one respect for me, you know,
646
::understanding where Danieli was in the process
actually took some pressure off to a certain
647
::extent.
648
::I kind of knew that we would be, our
649
::relationship, it would be okay.
650
::Whatever happened, that's not the case for
651
::everyone.
652
::And I think we have to recognise that and I
653
::think we also have to look at the spectrum of
the gender spectrum.
654
::Now for people who are non binary or trans
going through these experiences, it can be,
655
::you know, really difficult because, you know,
it's not recognised within, within their
656
::community.
657
::So I think, you know, it's difficult for
658
::anyone going through who wanted a child at the
end of the process.
659
::MaryLayo: And like, even the very fact that
you're here and you're talking about what
660
::we've all, we've been saying all throughout,
that it's not talked about, it's not talked
661
::about openly or certainly not enough.
662
::How did you actually get to this point?
663
::I don't know if we'd started recording, Tina,
but you kind of said, I think you said early
664
::on about how you, you know, it's still, you
know, you're still getting there, it's still a
665
::journey.
666
::So, but you've, you've obviously got to a
667
::certain point enough to share even about your
own experience and that helped that, that's a,
668
::let me just call it progress.
669
::That tells me something about where you're at
670
::in that journey.
671
::So how did you, how did you get to this point
672
::of being maybe more able to talk about it, for
example?
673
::And I would say that to you as well, Danielle,
the fact that you put a post out on LinkedIn,
674
::that got my attention and I don't see that
kind of sharing in an open space often.
675
::So how, how did you get to that point where
you thought, you know what, I'm going to say
676
::this, and was there a turning point?
Was there a milestone individually or as a
677
::couple that made you think, yeah, you're at
that place where you are more able to talk
678
::openly?
679
::Tina: I think for me, and this is something
else that is nothing talked about.
680
::In fact, I haven't actually heard it talked
about ever.
681
::We'd gone through two rounds of IVF and we had
some frozen embryos.
682
::I think we had, like, four frozen embryos,
which meant that obviously we could have
683
::probably another one or two or three attempts,
you know, past that.
684
::And I think because of the traumatic
experience that I'd gone through.
685
::And then we kind of took some time and I just
said, look, I just want a break.
686
::I can't go into it, like, another six months
down the line.
687
::I just need a break.
688
::And I think by this point, I was probably, I
689
::don't know, 45, you know, maybe 46.
690
::But we kept our embryos frozen because even
691
::though in my heart, I knew I couldn't do
another round every year.
692
::We used to get a letter from the fertility
clinic and you paid for the storage.
693
::What would you like to do with your embryos?
Would you like to keep them in storage?
694
::Would you like to destroy them?
Would you like to put them into research?
695
::And we kept them on storage on ice for
probably another five years, because that was
696
::another grieving process all over again.
697
::To actually tick a box.
698
::To say, for me now, this is where I'm going to
get emotional that, you know, that's us.
699
::That's us.
700
::Darn.
701
::And I'm destroying or putting our embryos into
research was just such a hard decision.
702
::So I just didn't want to go through that
grieving process again.
703
::But then what did help me?
And I couldn't have, you know, I said.
704
::I said to Danieli, I'm ready, but couldn't
tick the box.
705
::And so, you know, he ticked the box and he
just quietly posted the letter because I just
706
::couldn't physically.
707
::I couldn't physically do it.
708
::And I think it was at that point then, you
know, we started to reorganise our lives.
709
::We. We took an amazing sabbatical and we
travelled South America four months.
710
::For four months.
711
::Daniele: It was amazing.
712
::Tina: And I always remember my boss saying to
me, the wonderful Dale, this is your
713
::experience.
714
::You know, some people experience motherhood.
715
::You're going to experience something new in
your travels.
716
::And that was just such a amazing thing to
hear.
717
::It was just another life experience that we
were going to experience together.
718
::And then obviously, the work passed.
719
::Then was writing the essay, the blog post, our
720
::own therapy.
721
::I became a volunteer for childline so that I
722
::still had kind of children in my life that I
knew that, you know, I was.
723
::Well, yeah, I would hope making a difference.
724
::So all of those things for me personally, but
725
::that has been over a period of, you know,
quite.
726
::Quite a few years.
727
::Daniele: And I think.
728
::I think, you know, so I've.
729
::Because of the work that I do in inclusion
equity and diversity, you know, I do a lot of
730
::inclusive leadership training.
731
::So, you know, the reality was, if anyone
732
::follows me on LinkedIn, they know I'm
extremely vulnerable.
733
::But this was probably the last big
vulnerability because I knew this was, this
734
::was, this wasn't.
735
::This one wasn't about me, this one was about
736
::us.
737
::So I had to show all the other vulnerability
738
::first, I think, before Tina just went and she
wrote, and, you know, it's my pknortheminal.
739
::It goes out under my name.
740
::But to be honest, Tina wrote most of it
741
::because, you know, I wrote it and, you know,
we wrote it together.
742
::So I think, for me, that's really important.
743
::I think.
744
::Yeah, listen, you know, you know, it's really
weird because on the other side, I think it
745
::has given, you know, I do think there's a
responsibility on us to do stuff, make change.
746
::It's why I do what I do.
747
::But also, I think the, you know, the best
748
::compliment I did get from someone, I think
they meant it.
749
::You know, it could have.
750
::I think they said, it's Tina.
751
::They probably wouldn't.
752
::She wouldn't have felt so nice, but to me it
753
::was, you know, they said, you're the best
advert for people that don't have kids, you
754
::know, and I think you need adverts for people
that don't have kids because I don't think.
755
::I don't think, you know, I think part of the
challenge that, you know, Tina feels the way
756
::she did is because of the pressures, you know,
that society puts on.
757
::And so for me, anything that takes that
pressure off that actually says, you know
758
::what, there is another way to be very, very
happy and not have kids.
759
::I think that's also important.
760
::MaryLayo: So you've kind of just talked about
or mentioned about, you know, things that
761
::could be done to take that, let's call it that
shame, that secrecy, you know, and to kind of,
762
::like, dispel that.
763
::So what more could do, you think could be
764
::done?
So, for example, we know that there are, well,
765
::in some workplaces, depending on geographical
location, there are things like parental
766
::bereavement leave or those kind of things.
767
::What else, as society could be done so that
768
::you are, as a couple are not the ad, but it's
more widespread, if that makes sense, more
769
::widespread.
770
::I don't know, actions, initiatives, things
771
::that could be done so it's not such a big
deal.
772
::Tina: I think.
773
::I mean, I think that there is for, you know,
774
::hundreds of years the way that women,
particularly without children, are portrayed
775
::in the media, in films, and they're always the
psychotic person or the Disney witch or
776
::demonised, almost demonised by society.
777
::The matriarchal witches that were back
778
::hundreds of years ago, they were demonised.
779
::And I think to the point that Danieli was
780
::making about, you know, these positive role
models that you have, and it's not just
781
::childless, you know, we do have people
actually that are child free and they choose
782
::to be child free.
783
::I mean, you know, we're childless, not by
784
::choice, but you have people that are child
free, you know, until we see those positive
785
::role models in the media and in films.
786
::And I don't think that society will change.
787
::You know, we live in a pronatalist society.
788
::Until that changes, I'm not sure how.
789
::Daniele: Just look at the Barbie movie.
790
::Everyone talks about how feminist it was and
791
::what a wonderful movie, and it ends with her
going to the gynaecologist.
792
::You're like, going, okay, what's that say?
What's that saying in terms of people's
793
::purpose?
I think for me, we've just got to look at the
794
::world is moving.
795
::So I run so called author anonymous Emma
796
::Gannons, and she wrote a book called Olive.
797
::You know, Emma does talk about the pressure
798
::that, you know, as someone that has chosen not
to have children, the pressure that she gets
799
::put the whole time.
800
::So I think having more role models of people
801
::speaking openly about that choice and what we
are seeing is we're seeing a whole generation
802
::coming through who, because of the climate,
are making that decision.
803
::So I think there will be a shift, but I think
exactly what Tina said.
804
::We have to be, we have to be mind, because the
workplace is a really difficult one, I'll be
805
::honest, because, you know, I remember when I
used to leave and I called, you know, I've
806
::always had pet projects and I always call them
my baby.
807
::You know, I'd leave for work, I leave early,
like, I left at 530, and people would judge me
808
::for it, but then a parent goes to leave at 530
and then it's like, oh, they're going to see
809
::their kids.
810
::But the reality is I'm not going to sit here
811
::and go, single people need some more support
at work because work is so, so the barriers
812
::for primary caregivers and work is so high.
813
::I mean, it's, you know, people who are primary
814
::caregivers, it's so hard for them in the
workplace, I don't want, you know, for.
815
::For me, the focus still needs to be on
supporting them because it is so hard to have
816
::a child and be that primary caregiver.
817
::Tina: But I think there is an element of
respecting people's time.
818
::My time is no less valuable than someone who
has children.
819
::I have things that I like to do that are
important to me.
820
::It doesn't mean that I should compromise the
time, my time and feel lesser than.
821
::Because I don't have kids.
822
::MaryLayo: Of course. Yeah. So I was going to
ask about advice that you would give to
823
::people, let's just say friends, family, who
are trying to support those who wants to have
824
::children but doesn't have children.
825
::So, for example, there's some people that are
826
::less skilled, you know, when it comes to
giving support.
827
::And there are, you know, and there are people
that want to help or support in whatever way
828
::they can, but they don't know how to, you
know, and sometimes when you don't know how
829
::to, you say nothing.
830
::And sometimes saying nothing creates that
831
::elephant in the room.
832
::So what kind of advice would you give to
833
::people, whether they're a friend or a family
member or a colleague who are trying to
834
::support someone, but they don't really know
how to, or they are supporting in the way that
835
::they think they should be supporting, but they
don't know if they are supporting effectively.
836
::What kind of advice would you give to anyone
who's listening?
837
::But it's in that position.
838
::Daniele: I would give the same advice I give
for any other situation.
839
::I'm going to give you an example.
840
::I heard of a. In the work that I do, I heard
841
::of an example of someone was experiencing
Ramadan and would come out and everyone gone,
842
::lunch.
843
::No one was at their desk having lunch like
844
::they normally do because they decided that
actually the best thing to do was not to eat
845
::in front of them.
846
::And he just.
847
::And he just felt completely kind of left out
and say, for me, advice is really simple.
848
::Everyone needs support.
849
::Ask them what support they need.
850
::MaryLayo: Sure. I feel good to talk.
851
::Daniele: Just say, I know you're going through
suffer.
852
::It must be really hard.
853
::I really feel with you, what support can I
854
::give you?
And sometimes, and sometimes people might be,
855
::oh, I don't.
856
::I'm fine.
857
::I don't need support.
858
::And that's when you might want to go dig a bit
859
::deeper, work out what they're actually going
through, and sometimes just make suggestions.
860
::So would it be helpful if.
861
::So, that kind of culture, intelligence to
862
::understand what they might be going through,
might just take someone over the edge of just
863
::doing something.
864
::So I think for me, it's not, I don't think
865
::it's more than just saying, what kind of
support should I give you?
866
::Because often people will go, no support.
867
::And again, I think it's the same.
868
::I've seen it in grief, right.
869
::If someone's grieving and you say, what can I
870
::do to support you?
They'll say, no, I'm absolutely fine.
871
::They're not fine.
872
::So you then go, okay, how about we go for a
873
::walk in the park?
Would that be, would you like, then all of a
874
::sudden you go, oh, yeah, I love that.
875
::So it's just thinking a bit more around what
876
::they might be going through and what might be
helpful.
877
::So that you've always got that second follow
up question, which when they, when they
878
::invariably, some of them people, this is
exactly what you could do, support me.
879
::When they say, just don't just walk away.
880
::When they say, no, I'm absolutely fine.
881
::Because no one ever really is absolutely fine,
and everyone can do with a bit more support.
882
::MaryLayo: Yeah.
883
::Tina: I think the thing that I would add just
on top of that, again, we sort of work in the
884
::same industry is also you can educate yourself
around some of the experiences.
885
::So it just kind of builds a bit of empathy.
886
::It's not like every experience is going to be
887
::the same, but you can, you know, there are
lots of, you know, Jodi Day is someone, she
888
::wrote a book, living the life unexpected.
889
::Just educating yourself about some of the
890
::experiences that people will go through, I
think can build some empathy and
891
::understanding.
892
::MaryLayo: And I'm going to end with this
question, which is, what would you say to
893
::someone who is going through a similar
situation and they're perhaps not as far in
894
::that journey as you are now, what would you
say to them, especially if they're struggling?
895
::Yeah.
896
::Tina: I wish that I'd got help a bit sooner.
897
::I felt alone through the process and, you
898
::know, it is a very lonely place.
899
::I wish that I had got help and, you know,
900
::don't, don't.
901
::Well, it's very easy to say, don't be too hard
902
::on yourself.
903
::But, you know, really trying to take things
904
::step by step, day by day, it's not easy.
905
::It's never going to be an easy journey.
906
::But if you can get some support and try to
look after yourself through it, then hopefully
907
::will be something that I don't like the term
come to terms with, but live with and find joy
908
::again.
909
::Daniele: And I think just to add in terms of,
and again, not everyone going through IVF is
910
::in a couple, but for those that are in
couples, I actually would say that everyone
911
::should go through being couples therapy during
it.
912
::Yeah.
913
::I mean, if you don't need couples therapy
914
::because you communicate, communicate,
communicate, great.
915
::But there's, you know, I actually says to all
my friends that are married now, anyone that's
916
::married before they get married, I would say
the same thing.
917
::And again, I think it's the same in a couple
going through something like this.
918
::Don't know whether you've seen the film.
919
::You can tell I love film because I watch a lot
920
::of film, but I always tell people they have to
watch the film marriage story because it's the
921
::most heartbreaking film because there's two
people that you can tell love each other
922
::deeply, but at certain points in their lives,
they just do not communicate properly and it
923
::means them doing a part.
924
::And I think it's the same.
925
::It's the same when you go through something as
difficult as IVF, you have to communicate the
926
::whole way through.
927
::MaryLayo: Thank you so much, Tina and
Danielle, you've been very open.
928
::You've made yourself vulnerable.
929
::And I know it's all to the good of people who
930
::need to hear this because like we've said,
this isn't really talked about openly much.
931
::And so the more that we do this kind of stuff,
the better.
932
::So thank you so much.
933
::I really appreciate you.
934
::Daniele: Pleasure.
935
::MaryLayo: Here's a spiritual wellness tip for
you.
936
::Meditate on 1st.
937
::1st Thessalonians, chapter five, verses 1618,
938
::which reads, always be joyful, never stop
praying.
939
::Be thankful in all circumstances for this is
God's will for you who belong to Christ Jesus.
940
::Thanks for listening.
941
::Do follow and join me again next time on
942
::beyond the smile with Mary Layo.
