Fake or For Real?

Marylayo: 00:00:00

Host.

Marylayo: 00:00:03

Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a podcast that discusses mental health and

Marylayo: 00:00:08

spiritual wellbeing, before we jump in, there may be episodes that are particularly

Marylayo: 00:00:14

sensitive for some listeners.

Marylayo: 00:00:15

And if that applies, then I hope you'll be able to join me whenever.

Marylayo: 00:00:19

You feel ready and able.

Marylayo: 00:00:24

Today's.

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Episode is with guest Belinda Ridings.

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Belinda is a coaching psychologist and also did some research into Impostor syndrome,

Marylayo: 00:00:35

which is our topic for today.

Marylayo: 00:00:37

So I started off by asking Belinda, what is

Marylayo: 00:00:40

Impostor syndrome? Let's go and chat to her.

Belinda: 00:00:45

So Impostor syndrome is this felt sense that you're not what you're making

Belinda: 00:00:50

yourself out to be.

Belinda: 00:00:51

And it often shows up at work and makes people

Belinda: 00:00:54

feel like they're about to be caught out, about to be found out as a fake.

Marylayo: 00:00:58

Right. So I guess there's going to be a lot of anxiety for that person, a lot of

Marylayo: 00:01:04

maybe trying to overcompensate in terms of striving, in terms of their performance, just

Marylayo: 00:01:09

to try and make up ground because they feel that they're not up to the job and they're

Marylayo: 00:01:14

going to be caught out.

Belinda: 00:01:15

That's often how it does show up.

Belinda: 00:01:17

That's exactly it.

Belinda: 00:01:19

That idea of having to show that you're really good and not allow any cracks or any

Belinda: 00:01:26

vulnerabilities to show to the point that people become quite anxious, as you said.

Marylayo: 00:01:31

And you've done some research on Impostor syndrome.

Marylayo: 00:01:36

What were the kind of things that came out?

Belinda: 00:01:38

Well, the three defining factors of Impostor syndrome, which is not from me, this

Belinda: 00:01:45

is the originators of that concept, were that you feel that you've fooled other people into

Belinda: 00:01:53

thinking that you're better than you really are.

Belinda: 00:01:56

You explain your success as due to external factors such as luck or a mistake.

Belinda: 00:02:04

And the biggest of the three, which is the fear of being exposed and found out.

Marylayo: 00:02:09

Yeah.

Belinda: 00:02:10

So that was the premise on which I went into my research and I spoke to a number

Belinda: 00:02:16

of coaches and used my own coaching experience and found out that impostor syndrome is really

Belinda: 00:02:22

common, it's a very familiar human experience and that, unlike the original researchers,

Belinda: 00:02:29

there's no difference in frequency between genders of the incidence of impostor syndrome.

Belinda: 00:02:34

So it can be an experience for anyone.

Marylayo: 00:02:37

Right, okay.

Marylayo: 00:02:38

Because I guess there's a lot of preconception

Marylayo: 00:02:41

that it's only certain types of genders that would struggle with Impostor syndrome.

Belinda: 00:02:47

Yeah, that was it.

Belinda: 00:02:48

That was the original research.

Belinda: 00:02:50

It was research carried out by feminist researchers in the US.

Belinda: 00:02:54

In the they were only really looking at it as a thing that shows up in female gender,

Belinda: 00:03:01

whereas women tend to talk about it quite openly in that respect.

Belinda: 00:03:05

So I think that's where that idea came from.

Marylayo: 00:03:08

Right, okay.

Marylayo: 00:03:09

And as a coach, how many of your clients would

Marylayo: 00:03:14

you say struggle with Impostor syndrome?

Belinda: 00:03:18

I think it's a lot.

Belinda: 00:03:20

I think maybe 50% might come to me knowing

Belinda: 00:03:23

that I've got some experience with Impostor syndrome, whereas probably nearest 75% might

Belinda: 00:03:30

express some of those fears and concerns that people who relate to Impostor Syndrome might

Belinda: 00:03:37

also feel.

Marylayo: 00:03:37

So it's quite common, basically.

Belinda: 00:03:39

It's really common.

Marylayo: 00:03:41

And do you know what can trigger Impostor Syndrome?

Belinda: 00:03:44

Yeah, it is a very specific syndrome.

Belinda: 00:03:48

So it could be dormant for years and then be

Belinda: 00:03:52

triggered by something like a promotion beyond the person's sense of how well they think they

Belinda: 00:03:58

should be doing for their age or experience.

Belinda: 00:04:01

So it could be a promotion, it could be

Belinda: 00:04:04

commonplace in careers where people have their performance measured and that's quite a common

Belinda: 00:04:10

thing anyway these days.

Belinda: 00:04:12

But particularly in medicine, some sales roles

Belinda: 00:04:17

where people are targeted and education in particular.

Belinda: 00:04:21

So those are the kinds of things that can send people into the Impostor Syndrome experience

Belinda: 00:04:27

really rapidly.

Marylayo: 00:04:28

What about root causes?

Belinda: 00:04:30

In terms of the causes, there's not much known about it, but I think.

Speaker D: 00:04:33

When I explore with people in coaching as a psychologist and people do share

Speaker D: 00:04:38

about their background, it could be from.

Belinda: 00:04:40

One of two extremes.

Belinda: 00:04:41

So at one end of the continuum.

Speaker D: 00:04:43

It might be the kind of family where the child is treated as if they're a

Speaker D: 00:04:47

genius, where they're told they're special, exceptional, gifted, and that child might feel

Speaker D: 00:04:52

under pressure to perform in order to be appreciated and loved and rewarded in that

Speaker D: 00:04:57

family.

Speaker D: 00:04:57

The exact opposite could also be one of the

Speaker D: 00:05:00

causes.

Belinda: 00:05:01

So a family where a child is.

Speaker D: 00:05:02

Either ignored and neglected and not receiving much attention or where in fact

Speaker D: 00:05:07

they're actively criticized that child might also feel like their achievements aren't their

Speaker D: 00:05:13

own, right?

Marylayo: 00:05:13

Yeah.

Belinda: 00:05:14

So very hard to pinpoint but not.

Speaker D: 00:05:16

Untypical of other psychological defenses.

Marylayo: 00:05:19

You mentioned about how for those who feel that they have impostor syndrome

Marylayo: 00:05:24

because of those three criteria, that obviously kind of shows or to me, it says how

Marylayo: 00:05:32

based on how they think and also how they feel that can have a bit of a cloud over their

Marylayo: 00:05:37

heads in terms of their well being, just to have an impact in terms of them enjoying maybe

Marylayo: 00:05:44

their work, certain different activities.

Marylayo: 00:05:47

So how would someone like yourself as a coach,

Marylayo: 00:05:51

how would you try and help that individual to change how they think and then change how they

Marylayo: 00:05:59

feel so that they don't have those kind of thinkings feelings that struggle?

Belinda: 00:06:06

Yeah, I really like what you said there about it being like a cloud hanging over

Belinda: 00:06:10

someone and I think it can really take up a lot of thinking space and emotional space for

Belinda: 00:06:14

someone who's experiencing that kind of anxiety.

Belinda: 00:06:17

So working with an individual, we would be helping them to do some reality checking.

Belinda: 00:06:25

So being very realistic about what their record of achievement really is, what their

Belinda: 00:06:30

experience really is, whether they can actually do the job.

Belinda: 00:06:33

And mostly people recognize that they can and that some things set them off feeling like

Belinda: 00:06:39

they can't.

Belinda: 00:06:40

So it's a matter of regulating their nervous

Belinda: 00:06:44

system being a bit calmer, using mindfulness techniques, breathing techniques and reality

Belinda: 00:06:50

checking.

Belinda: 00:06:50

So once we've got someone into a better state

Belinda: 00:06:54

of mind, less anxious, more able to think clearly, then there's other things that you

Belinda: 00:07:00

can work on about what the origins of the feelings are, how they're showing up in that

Belinda: 00:07:04

particular context.

Marylayo: 00:07:06

I mean, that's really interesting because while you were talking, I was just

Marylayo: 00:07:10

thinking about how just being in that place can really make the individual maybe stagnant

Marylayo: 00:07:18

in terms of trying to go for career progression, advance in different areas of

Marylayo: 00:07:24

their lives because of how they feel.

Marylayo: 00:07:27

And that can hold them back in terms of just

Marylayo: 00:07:30

promotions, in terms of those kind of things.

Marylayo: 00:07:34

So it's quite debilitating when someone, if

Marylayo: 00:07:39

they have impostor syndrome, it can be quite debilitating and really can affect them in the

Marylayo: 00:07:45

workplace.

Marylayo: 00:07:46

It can affect their well being as well.

Belinda: 00:07:48

Yeah, that's absolutely true.

Belinda: 00:07:50

I think the fear can be quite paralyzing for

Belinda: 00:07:53

people.

Belinda: 00:07:53

They can feel like they really are about to be

Belinda: 00:07:56

discovered as a fake.

Belinda: 00:07:58

So often, rather than seeking help or being

Belinda: 00:08:01

more realistic about the truth, people go into quite a frightened state, frozen state, and

Belinda: 00:08:07

then it's going to prevent them from going for promotions, make them a bit secretive at work,

Belinda: 00:08:13

reluctant to delegate, more likely to use external consultants if that person's a leader

Belinda: 00:08:18

or a manager.

Belinda: 00:08:20

And it'll be pretty obvious to the wider team

Belinda: 00:08:22

that there's some kind of defensive behavior going on.

Marylayo: 00:08:25

And if someone was going to maybe take some self help steps, what are the kind

Marylayo: 00:08:32

of things that they could do?

Belinda: 00:08:35

I think having a conversation with a trusted person, either at work or in their

Belinda: 00:08:41

personal life, sharing some of their concerns, getting some help around, doing the reality

Belinda: 00:08:46

checking, becoming a bit more clear about what their abilities are and what their abilities

Belinda: 00:08:51

aren't as well.

Belinda: 00:08:52

So that if there is some factor in that

Belinda: 00:08:55

they're not able to do the job as well as they'd like, they can get some training and

Belinda: 00:08:59

support around that.

Belinda: 00:09:01

Or if it's not the right job for them, just

Belinda: 00:09:03

accept that they'd be better off somewhere else, happier one life.

Belinda: 00:09:07

Right?

Marylayo: 00:09:08

Yeah, true.

Marylayo: 00:09:09

Very true.

Marylayo: 00:09:10

Make the most of it.

Belinda: 00:09:12

Yeah, exactly.

Belinda: 00:09:13

So don't stay if it's not the right

Belinda: 00:09:15

environment because you can't thrive and you can't grow.

Belinda: 00:09:18

But yeah, you need to know that that's because it's not the right place for you, rather than

Belinda: 00:09:22

you've gone into a frightened frozen state.

Marylayo: 00:09:25

Sure. And I guess I could probably guess what you're going to say to this one

Marylayo: 00:09:31

because everyone is different.

Marylayo: 00:09:32

But roughly, if let's just say someone was to

Marylayo: 00:09:37

get external help, they were to come to a coach like yourself, how long can it take for

Marylayo: 00:09:44

someone to change and become a non impostor syndrome person, if that's a word?

Belinda: 00:09:52

Yeah, exactly.

Belinda: 00:09:53

I think it can be pretty quick.

Belinda: 00:09:55

It depends on the individual and how entrenched they are and how close to being

Belinda: 00:10:00

found out they feel like they are in their work.

Belinda: 00:10:03

So if they really feel like they've had a warning at work, or someone suggested that

Belinda: 00:10:09

they oversold themselves at the interview or something like that, then people can be really

Belinda: 00:10:13

anxious and frightened and that will make it a bit slower.

Belinda: 00:10:17

But I think actually rapid changes can be made to some of the kind of reality checking

Belinda: 00:10:23

beliefs and then maybe it takes a little bit longer to look at old stuff.

Belinda: 00:10:27

So if it's rooted in childhood and somebody wants to look at how that's made them feel, an

Belinda: 00:10:33

impostor, that can take a little bit longer.

Marylayo: 00:10:35

And is there anything that, let's just say someone in their support system could

Marylayo: 00:10:41

do to help or support so like a friend or family member?

Marylayo: 00:10:47

Because I'm guessing really that if someone is struggling and you could tell them like, no,

Marylayo: 00:10:54

but you're great, you've got this degree or this PhD or look what you achieved here and

Marylayo: 00:11:00

there, but they're not really actually taking it in.

Marylayo: 00:11:03

It can probably be even quite frustrating for someone in that individual circles and they're

Marylayo: 00:11:09

probably feeling a bit helpless in terms of how they can support that individual.

Marylayo: 00:11:13

Is there anything that you would say that those in us in the support system of someone

Marylayo: 00:11:19

with impostor syndrome could do to help?

Belinda: 00:11:23

Yeah, I think that's a great question and it's difficult when you're friends and

Belinda: 00:11:28

family because people tend not to believe you that your intentions are anything other than

Belinda: 00:11:34

to be kind.

Belinda: 00:11:36

And so they can discount some of that kind of

Belinda: 00:11:39

wise counsel that you can give your friend, because you're a friend after all.

Marylayo: 00:11:44

Your biased perhaps.

Belinda: 00:11:46

Right? And I think if someone's really hooked on the

Belinda: 00:11:49

idea that they're on the verge of being caught out at work, it's really hard to reassure them

Belinda: 00:11:54

as a friend.

Belinda: 00:11:55

So referring them to a professional might be

Belinda: 00:11:59

the best route.

Belinda: 00:12:00

But I think there's quite a lot written about

Belinda: 00:12:02

impostor syndrome now, so there are articles available.

Belinda: 00:12:06

If you look on the internet, on a search engine, you'll find some really good stuff

Belinda: 00:12:11

written about impostor syndrome, some not so great, but I think if you look at an article,

Belinda: 00:12:17

pick out two or three tips that really work for you, you don't have to do everything.

Belinda: 00:12:21

But yeah, I think there's a lot of really good advice and I think the reality checking and

Belinda: 00:12:26

being really honest with yourself is something you can do with a friend.

Belinda: 00:12:30

You can say, I've never been that good at math and that's part of this new role.

Belinda: 00:12:35

And your friend can say, yeah, so maybe you need a bit more support around that, maybe you

Belinda: 00:12:38

can talk to someone in the accounts department to get some mentoring.

Belinda: 00:12:42

There's definitely things that friends can help with.

Marylayo: 00:12:45

And lastly, if someone's listening who can identify with having Impostor

Marylayo: 00:12:50

syndrome, are there any key things that you would give them as a takeaway?

Belinda: 00:12:55

Yeah, for sure.

Belinda: 00:12:57

Look into your heart and ask yourself, what's

Belinda: 00:12:59

the purpose of telling yourself that you're not as good as other people think you are?

Belinda: 00:13:04

Are you doing that to try and keep yourself motivated?

Belinda: 00:13:07

So it's like a motivation, a driver, and that's the intention behind telling yourself

Belinda: 00:13:13

that? Or is it because you're trying to manage

Belinda: 00:13:17

people's expectations of you? If it's the latter, it sounds like there's

Belinda: 00:13:21

something to really work on there.

Belinda: 00:13:23

Perhaps it's fear of success as much as fear

Belinda: 00:13:26

of failure.

Belinda: 00:13:27

And there's a reason behind that.

Belinda: 00:13:29

You're holding yourself back.

Belinda: 00:13:30

So I'd say get some help, get over it.

Belinda: 00:13:34

Live your best life.

Belinda: 00:13:35

Don't let it hold you back.

Marylayo: 00:13:36

Brilliant.

Marylayo: 00:13:37

I love that.

Marylayo: 00:13:37

Live your best life.

Marylayo: 00:13:39

Don't let it hold you back.

Marylayo: 00:13:41

All right, on that note, I would like to thank you, Belinda.

Marylayo: 00:13:44

I think you've given us a lot of food for thought and thanks for sharing your tips and

Marylayo: 00:13:50

giving that advice.

Marylayo: 00:13:51

And hopefully it will help someone somewhere

Marylayo: 00:13:54

out there.

Belinda: 00:13:55

I hope so.

Belinda: 00:13:56

Thank you.

Belinda: 00:13:57

Marylayo. Great to talk to you today.

Marylayo: 00:14:01

Here's a spiritual wellness tip that you can meditate on.

Marylayo: 00:14:05

It's two Timothy, chapter one, verse seven, and it reads, for God has not.

Marylayo: 00:14:11

Given us a spirit of fear and.

Marylayo: 00:14:12

Timidity, but of power, love and self discipline.

Marylayo: 00:14:25

Thank you for listening.

Marylayo: 00:14:27

Do follow and join me again.

Marylayo: 00:14:29

Next time on Marylayo Talks Beyond the Smile.