Standing up to Goliath
Workplace Bullying and Intimidation
In today's episode of MaryLayo Talks, I’m with guest, Jessy Gomes, about workplace intimidation and bullying. Jessy shares how her experience had an impact on mental health and she overcame the challenges.
The conversation covers:
- Jessy’s personality, character and confident nature
- Jessy’s experience of anxiety and loss of confidence at work
- What Jessy did to gain back her confidence
- What Jessy learned about herself
- The steps Jessy put in place to look after her wellbeing
- Tips friends and family can do to support those going through bullying or intimidation at work?
- Tips for someone who may be experiencing bullying or intimidation at work?
- A Bible scripture to meditate on and support spiritual wellbeing.
Take a moment to delve into what may be 'beyond the smile' - listen in to the conversation.
Guest details:
Jessy is a creative thinker, PhD researcher, a Global Health and Safety Leader in the Construction sector and a change maker. Jessy serves as an Occupational Safety and Health Strategist and women’s advocate on the profession. Her latest research is on Health and Safety strategies that are overcoming the plateaued statistics in the UK.
TEDx talk: Your Job Does Not Define Your Worth
Marylayo's spiritual wellbeing tip: Meditate on the bible scripture Romans 8:28.
Connect with MaryLayo:
For help in dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.
Transcript
1
::Marylayo: Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a podcast
that discusses mental health and spiritual
2
::well being.
3
::Before we jump in, there may be episodes that
4
::are particularly sensitive for some listeners,
and if that applies, then I hope you'll be
5
::able to join me whenever you feel ready and
able.
6
::Today's episode episode is on intimidation and
bullying at work.
7
::And I'm with guest Jessy Gomes, an
occupational safety and health professional
8
::and TEDx speaker.
9
::Jessy touches on a challenging experience she
10
::went through and its impact on her and how she
refuses to be shut down in order to move
11
::forward.
12
::Let's join in the conversation.
13
::Welcome, Jessy.
14
::Thank you so much for joining me.
15
::Jessy: Thank you for having me.
16
::Thank you.
17
::Marylayo: So we're here to talk about
workplace intimidation and bullying.
18
::It's something that happens all the time
everywhere.
19
::It's commonplace.
20
::People are actually resigning, leaving their
21
::roles because of this issue.
22
::So it's something that we just need to keep
23
::talking about, because this is the reality for
so many people.
24
::I want to start with really just asking you to
paint a picture of you as a person for us.
25
::So how would colleagues or family or those in
your profession, how would they describe you?
26
::Because I think it's important for people to
know your character, how strong or fierce you
27
::are, because that's how I know you.
28
::And later on, we can talk about how it
29
::affected you, workplace bullying and
intimidation.
30
::I know you might be humble about it, but give
us a picture in terms of how people describe
31
::how you describe yourself.
32
::Jessy: Thank you.
33
::Yeah, I think humility is really important,
34
::but I think what is really important as well
for people is to know who they are themselves,
35
::because otherwise you tend to go through life
in the eye of other people telling you who you
36
::are.
37
::And even as an adult, I have people telling me
38
::who I am, but I think it's really important to
know who you are and don't be humble about it.
39
::Know who you are and have your own boundary.
40
::So I think definitely I will describe myself
41
::as someone really positive, always keen for
discovery, keen for learning.
42
::I'm the type of person, if someone come to me
about an idea, I will never be the person who
43
::talks you down about something.
44
::I will be always positive about it and will
45
::say, let's go with it.
46
::And I think this has come with my education
47
::and my upbringing, when I've been told that I
could do everything I want and there were no
48
::limitation about everything I wanted to do.
49
::So I just kept this way of being from
50
::childhood and I took it from adulthood.
51
::And it's a bit difficult because you have
52
::adults around you who not dare to dream, not
dare to think about doing the next thing, not
53
::daring about pursuing the wildest dream and
goals.
54
::And I did it at the age of 24.
55
::I arrived in London.
56
::I think I met you quite nearly straight away,
and everybody knew me as Smiley Jessy, basically.
57
::And I never really changed until sometime
you've got people trying to dime your light
58
::and trying, but they tried and I'm still here,
I'm still and I'm still smiling.
59
::So this is what I do.
60
::Marylayo: That's great because that kind of
confirms what I would say about you, very
61
::strong, very fierce, and you've been, you've
been recognized by magazines in terms of being
62
::the most influential figure in the profession
that we're in, and then also Best Woman in
63
::Health and Safety category in the Women in
Construction and Engineering awards.
64
::So you've got quite a good collection of
accolades going, Jessey.
65
::And I'm bringing that out specifically because
I want people to be aware of how strong you
66
::are, like I said earlier, in terms of your
personality, your character, how driven you
67
::are, especially in terms of your career and
how you're able to balance that, even with
68
::family life and your studies, without going
into too many details.
69
::Because I know it might even be sensitive.
70
::But in terms of your experience of
71
::organizational bullying, tell us about that.
72
::So we have a bit of background in terms of
73
::what happened and how it then impacted you.
74
::Jessy: Yes. So as you mentioned earlier, I'm
an occupational health, safety and well being
75
::professional.
76
::So sometimes you go through work thinking like
77
::you are the one making system and processes in
place to protect people in their workplace,
78
::and sometime you are the person who've been
hurt in the workplace.
79
::And I think that there's certain category of
people in the workplace that are more easily
80
::targeted.
81
::When you are a woman or where you're not part
82
::of the majority demographic within a workplace
or within a society, often you just easily
83
::targeted.
84
::So I work in construction mainly, and
85
::construction is well known for being really
dominated industry, really tough industry due
86
::to the nature of the job, the nature of the
demand, really tight deadline, tight budget,
87
::and really high stress.
88
::So at one point in my career, I was working in
89
::an organization where man, this is not to
target a particular organization, but I think
90
::that in any organization there are always
certain people who's going to dim the name of
91
::the organization by doing things that the
organization do not allow to happen.
92
::And yes, I had this experience where I was
adding health and safety within a department
93
::brought in without a title and without a
raise, which sometimes it could be triggering
94
::for men, I think.
95
::It's not to pitch men against women.
96
::But in my case, it was a man who was probably
intimidated by me being who I am and being the
97
::way I am.
98
::It could be triggering for certain people to
99
::having a woman who really have this sense of
confidence about herself, knowing how to
100
::speak, being really confident on her own skin.
101
::I think it could trigger certain people.
102
::And I think this person just got triggered by
myself to the point that I couldn't speak on
103
::meeting.
104
::I was supposed to advise this person and I was
105
::becoming, I couldn't speak.
106
::Basically as soon as I tried to get one word
107
::out, this person will be talking of a meeting
to the point that I think at the beginning I
108
::just didn't notice.
109
::But then one day it just striked my mind when
110
::I started having anxiety of having to go to
the office.
111
::Think about it, you're just thinking, oh my
God, I'm not going to be able to be myself,
112
::I'm not going to be to show up and being as
confident, I feel diminished.
113
::I started losing my confidence and at some
point I shut down.
114
::I just stopped talking.
115
::Marylayo: And how long a period was this from
when you were this confident, outspoken person
116
::to then getting anxiety and not speaking?
117
::Jessy: I think to be honest, you know, when
you're a resilient and strong person, you
118
::don't see things immediately.
119
::No. So I think it took few months and to be
120
::honest, after nine to twelve months it was
confirmed.
121
::I knew that that person in particular was
making me feel a certain way and I knew that
122
::they were a problem.
123
::And you know what is the most difficult?
124
::It's you think that it's, you the problem at
the beginning.
125
::So I took a coach trying to gain confidence
and trying to being able to handle difficult
126
::conversation because I thought this person was
difficult or I didn't know how to speak with
127
::this person.
128
::And then I realized that I had everything.
129
::And I think this is what women need to
understand.
130
::We have everything it takes to lead.
131
::We have everything it takes to go for the next
132
::job.
133
::We have everything it takes to go for a
134
::wildest dream or wildest goal.
135
::We have it already inside us.
136
::You have to be careful of sometimes having
people talk to you down about who you are and
137
::trying to put you down in category and saying
jessey, you are this type of person.
138
::Jesse, you will never do a PhD. Jesse, you
will never enter UCL.
139
::Marylayo: Yeah, so many people hear those
words.
140
::Jessy: You can't do what you have to do, you
will never get married.
141
::I get married late.
142
::You never had children, had children late.
143
::So whatever people say, just believe you can
do it.
144
::Marylayo: Was it this coach then this coaching
experience that helped you to get to that
145
::point of realizing?
146
::Jessy: Definitely.
147
::I took a coach and I took a woman because I
148
::wanted someone to understand what it is to
work in a heavily men industry.
149
::But something really important, I had mentors
as well and men mentors.
150
::I think this is really important and what I
didn't had in a workplace, and I would like to
151
::emphasize it's a sponsor, someone behind
closed door who will say jessie is doing a
152
::good job.
153
::I know, Jessey, she's deserved this promotion,
154
::she's deserved this pay rise.
155
::You need to find someone who will say, oh, I
156
::know how you work and vouch for you, because
otherwise, I mean, everybody has different
157
::goals.
158
::But I know that my goal in life is to have my
159
::highest best life as possible.
160
::Life is short.
161
::And for me, I'm really ambitious.
162
::So for me it's having challenging things to do
163
::and trying to challenge myself and learn new
things and learn from my leaders and learn
164
::from my manager and learn from my peers as
well.
165
::But also it could be reversed as well, reverse
mentoring and helping someone who is a lower
166
::level who wants to go hub as well.
167
::So, yeah, this is my experience of
168
::intimidation and bullying in a workplace.
169
::And I had line manager as well who were like,
170
::oh, Jessy, why would you want to go for the next
promotion?
171
::It's hard, it's really hard.
172
::And the more you go higher and the more is
173
::difficult.
174
::I was supposed to say to myself, oh, yes, I
175
::think I'm just going to stay for 20 years
where I am, and I'm not going to try to go for
176
::the next opportunity, and I'm not going to try
to have a better paycheck, for example,
177
::because I have aspiration.
178
::I'd like to travel more, I'd like to do
179
::things.
180
::I have a family, I'd like my children to do
181
::things in life.
182
::Marylayo: But you didn't allow those words to.
183
::Jessy: Push you back no. Where you were,
because you have to believe that the higher
184
::forces that will help you to get where you
want to be and you can't rely on people.
185
::That's why I was saying earlier that you need
to know yourself really well, because
186
::otherwise other people will talk you down your
own dream.
187
::And I think it's important to don't share with
small mind your greatest ideas.
188
::Marylayo: Because they will be able to receive
it or appreciate it or support you enough.
189
::So you talked about anxiety and not talking
anymore in the workplace, talked about self
190
::doubts.
191
::Was there any other, like, I would say,
192
::symptoms that you remember that you had heart
racing.
193
::Jessy: And I think this was coming with
anxiety.
194
::And I think I really describe on my TEDx what
was like for me to be in this turmoil where
195
::you're depressed, you're anxious, you're
hopeless, you know you can't stay in this job,
196
::but you know that why would you leave your
job?
197
::Because you didn't do anything wrong.
198
::And why all of a sudden you become the woman
199
::to destroy just because you speak up?
200
::Marylayo: Yeah, you mentioned something really
important, because from my experience of those
201
::in my network who have gone through
intimidation in the workplace, they too are
202
::very what I would call ambitious individuals.
203
::And even though they've been in a toxic
204
::environment, they are hearing negative things,
getting negative vibes and being put down.
205
::One of the reasons why they don't leave that
toxic environment is because they feel that
206
::they haven't done anything wrong.
207
::And why should they be the ones that are
208
::pushed out?
Which I think is a very difficult situation to
209
::be in, because you've got people who will be
telling you, leave, you don't need this, it's
210
::not helping you.
211
::You're struggling, it's making you depressed,
212
::it's becoming traumatic for you.
213
::And yet they refuse to leave for
214
::understandable reasons.
215
::So is this something you can relate to?
216
::And what was the advice you were getting from,
let's just say your support network.
217
::Jessy: Okay. I think every situation is
different and I was fortunate enough that I
218
::could afford to leave.
219
::I mean, I couldn't really afford because I
220
::just had a child, but I allow myself to say my
health was more important and I was really
221
::supported by my husband and I decided that I
leave my job.
222
::And it was quite brutal because actually I
didn't even have time to speak with my
223
::husband, even though he knew I was going
through some challenges for a few years.
224
::When I quit my job, I decided that I'm
resigning.
225
::He was on a spot and he was on the first day
returning from maternity leave, which was
226
::quite traumatic.
227
::So I think for me, I will say for anybody
228
::going through this, think about your health
first.
229
::You just can't stay in this type of
environment because it's just going to worsen
230
::your symptom.
231
::And I think that you need to trust your body.
232
::Your body is going to show you and is going to
behave to stress.
233
::It's going to have some physiological effects.
234
::And I went through that and who deserve to
235
::have to go through that?
You don't deserve just go, just find a new
236
::job, just go with plenty of organization out
there or take legal action as well.
237
::But it's not without consequence as well
because it can take many years to have an
238
::outcome as well.
239
::And you will be gaslighted as well.
240
::This is something you need to be prepared.
241
::It's like if you have this sense of you
242
::haven't done anything wrong, think about going
to the court and have to prove everything.
243
::So it's really crucial that you keep evidence
of everything because in the workplace they
244
::are really clever.
245
::Everything will be, let's have a chat behind a
246
::closed door.
247
::Nothing will be in writing.
248
::Just go back to your desk and write everything
down, everything you remember, just writing
249
::down and said to the person, as per our
conversation, as British people like to say,
250
::and you just put down everything you remember,
every fact, everything, and you build up your
251
::case until you get to the courtroom.
252
::Marylayo: Jessey, you're just reminding me how
strong, even though you were.
253
::Yes, seriously.
254
::Because what you're saying is very true and
255
::people know that.
256
::But even to write something down after, let's
257
::just call it an encounter, an experience, and
put it on record and send it to the other
258
::person.
259
::Let's just say a line manager.
260
::That's a hard thing to do because, number one,
that individual is feeling very vulnerable and
261
::it's almost like signaling to, let's just say,
the person who has been intimidating them,
262
::that, you know what?
I'm putting this on record and I'm sending
263
::this to you.
264
::And when you're in such a low place, being
265
::very vulnerable and being able to take that
step takes a lot.
266
::Jessy: I made the mistakes along the way, but
I think with mistakes and experience come
267
::learning.
268
::And this is why I'm here today, because I
269
::learn from what I went through and I think I
have a lot to share about my experience of
270
::bullying, harassment, discrimination in a
workplace, maternity discrimination, and also
271
::the fact that you don't get promoted in a
workplace as well.
272
::I learned a lot, yes.
273
::Marylayo: So what would you say are the key
things that you learned about yourself?
274
::What were the key things Jesse learned about
myself?
275
::Jessy: I learned that I'm extremely resilient.
276
::I learn also that I have limits and I have to
277
::know when I reach those limits and take a
break and then keep going.
278
::Marylayo: And when you say take a break, what
does taking a break look like?
279
::Jessy: For me, most of the time is going away
from traveling where I am.
280
::Yeah.
281
::So, for example, I live in London, I live in
282
::UK, I go away, I go somewhere.
283
::And sometimes what it means, I go on my own,
284
::it means that I leave the kids behind and I
leave my husband behind.
285
::Because at the end of the day, to be happy,
you need to find your own happiness.
286
::To be a good mum, you need to be good to
yourself.
287
::To be a good wife, you have to be good to
yourself.
288
::So I learned to be good to me because I think
that if I don't do that to me, I don't know
289
::who's going to do that to you.
290
::I can't wait for my husband to be good to me.
291
::He's good to me, but I have to show him how to
treat me.
292
::I have to show people how to treat me.
293
::So by always making sure I'm putting myself
294
::first and I look after myself, fitness is
really important to me.
295
::Mental health, having time for me, I show to
my children as well that this is what my
296
::version of being a good mum is.
297
::Because for me, it's important to be healthy.
298
::As a parent, you don't want to bring your
wound to your children.
299
::You want to show that, oh, Mummy is going to
exercise.
300
::My daughter see me living and said, oh, she's
going to exercise.
301
::And she knows it's important to look after
yourself.
302
::Marylayo: So I like that.
303
::So you've talked about what you learned about
304
::yourself is about being strong, having.
305
::Jessy: Limits, boundaries as well.
306
::I think it's really important if you don't
307
::show to people how to treat you.
308
::They will always step over your boundaries.
309
::And I think boundaries is something you have
to put on in any relationship with your
310
::friends, but also at work, principally at
work, because then, for example, you can
311
::easily get to a point that you can't say to
people, hold on 1 second.
312
::You gave me that to do two days ago and you
said it's a priority, and now you're asking me
313
::to do this.
314
::What is a priority for today?
315
::Because I can't do everything.
316
::And I know some people will get anxious and
317
::won't say anything and will be suck it in,
trying to squeeze everything and not being
318
::able to say, hold on 1 second, I just can't do
all of this.
319
::Marylayo: And it certainly was important for
you to have those boundaries and labels.
320
::Jessy: So I think set up your boundaries and
know your limit, because otherwise this could
321
::deal to frustration, anxieties being
depressed, hopeless and thinking that you're
322
::in a wrong place.
323
::But sometimes it's all about you trying to
324
::work with what you have as well, and trying to
say, okay, this is the way you were treated
325
::me.
326
::Let me show you now how I want to be treated.
327
::And from today on, if you have something to
give it to me, you give to me the timescale.
328
::What is the time frame around this work you're
asking me to do?
329
::Because I have already this and this.
330
::Marylayo: To do, so having that conversation
and making it clear.
331
::Jessy: And you have to know yourself to be
able to set up these boundaries.
332
::Marylayo: And I think you'd also need to grow
in yourself to be able to do that, because
333
::that might not be natural to some people.
334
::Jessy: And it come also with age.
335
::The approaching to her 40s Jesse is not the
336
::same of the mid 20s Jesse that arrive in UK.
337
::Obviously, I wasn't that confident when I
338
::arrived.
339
::I couldn't even speak English.
340
::So definitely you don't hold yourself tall
when you just can't speak the language and you
341
::don't understand what people are saying to
you.
342
::So obviously my confidence came with years.
343
::So I'll say to people, don't compare your
344
::chapter one with someone chapter eight,
because I've got over 15 years under my belt
345
::as well.
346
::So take time and build up and have a plan.
347
::Because I often said to myself and when I was
25, I will be working with these men who will
348
::be in their they will be always saying I have
25 years experience.
349
::And I will be always thinking ****, I will
never be taken seriously until I get to this
350
::25 years experience.
351
::Which is like, it's a long, long time and I'm
352
::still not there yet.
353
::Just do the work.
354
::Just do the work.
355
::Marylayo: What would you say to people who
have a loved one?
356
::They have, for example, a friend or a spouse
or maybe a child who's going through this in
357
::the workplace yeah.
358
::What would you advise them to do to support
359
::that individual?
Based on the support that you received at the
360
::time from your friends, from your support
network or not, what would you be able to
361
::advise them?
362
::Jessy: Yeah, I think what is really difficult
is sometimes someone going through a
363
::challenging time will tempt to isolate
themselves.
364
::So isolation is a result of this.
365
::But if you really close in an inner circle,
366
::it's trying to get the person out of our
environment, out of what's going on, and give
367
::them space also to speak about it if they want
to, and be really candid and respectful about
368
::it.
369
::And also ask them, what do you want me to do?
370
::Do you want me to listen or do you want me to
say something?
371
::Because sometimes you just want someone to
listen and don't have to comment, I think.
372
::So just be there and give them the option and
say, I'm here for you if you need to speak,
373
::because it could be really isolating.
374
::And sometimes people will go and reach to you.
375
::And I remember myself going and reaching to
some people who never come back to me.
376
::Marylayo: Right.
377
::Jessy: And to this day, I remember that when I
was at my lowest, I reached out to you, you
378
::just didn't reply, didn't even acknowledge my
message.
379
::If someone reached out to you once and didn't
come back after, just go to them and say, I'm
380
::here if you need to speak.
381
::I'm here if you need to go for a walk.
382
::I think these type of things really help me to
go for walks, do different things.
383
::And also, if you have this option to get out
of your workplace environment, just do it, be
384
::there for the person.
385
::Marylayo: Thank you so much, Jessie, for all
those nuggets.
386
::There was a lot in there for people to be able
to digest, including myself.
387
::So thanks so much for sharing your experience
and being so candid in terms of what you went
388
::through and with the advice that you're giving
people release.
389
::And for everyone who's listening, thanks for
joining me and hope to see you soon.
390
::Here's a spiritual wellness tip that you can
meditate on.
391
::It's Romans, chapter eight, verse 28, and it
reads and we know that all things work
392
::together for good to those who love God, to
those who are called according to his purpose.
393
::Thank you listening.
394
::Do follow and join me again next time on Mary
395
::layo Talks Beyond the Smile.
