Episode 7

full
Published on:

25th Jul 2023

Standing up to Goliath

Workplace Bullying and Intimidation

In today's episode of MaryLayo Talks, I’m with guest, Jessy Gomes, about workplace intimidation and bullying. Jessy shares how her experience had an impact on mental health and she overcame the challenges.

The conversation covers:

  • Jessy’s personality, character and confident nature
  • Jessy’s experience of anxiety and loss of confidence at work
  • What Jessy did to gain back her confidence
  • What Jessy learned about herself
  • The steps Jessy put in place to look after her wellbeing
  • Tips friends and family can do to support those going through bullying or intimidation at work?
  • Tips for someone who may be experiencing bullying or intimidation at work?
  • A Bible scripture to meditate on and support spiritual wellbeing.

Take a moment to delve into what may be 'beyond the smile' - listen in to the conversation.

Guest details:

Jessy is a creative thinker, PhD researcher, a Global Health and Safety Leader in the Construction sector and a change maker. Jessy serves as an Occupational Safety and Health Strategist and women’s advocate on the profession. Her latest research is on Health and Safety strategies that are overcoming the plateaued statistics in the UK.

TEDx talk: Your Job Does Not Define Your Worth 

Marylayo's spiritual wellbeing tip: Meditate on the bible scripture Romans 8:28.

Connect with MaryLayo:

LinkedIn

Instagram

For help in dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.

Transcript

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Marylayo: Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a podcast

that discusses mental health and spiritual

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well being.

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Before we jump in, there may be episodes that

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are particularly sensitive for some listeners,

and if that applies, then I hope you'll be

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able to join me whenever you feel ready and

able.

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Today's episode episode is on intimidation and

bullying at work.

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And I'm with guest Jessy Gomes, an

occupational safety and health professional

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and TEDx speaker.

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Jessy touches on a challenging experience she

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went through and its impact on her and how she

refuses to be shut down in order to move

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forward.

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Let's join in the conversation.

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Welcome, Jessy.

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Thank you so much for joining me.

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Jessy: Thank you for having me.

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Thank you.

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Marylayo: So we're here to talk about

workplace intimidation and bullying.

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It's something that happens all the time

everywhere.

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It's commonplace.

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People are actually resigning, leaving their

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roles because of this issue.

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So it's something that we just need to keep

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talking about, because this is the reality for

so many people.

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I want to start with really just asking you to

paint a picture of you as a person for us.

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So how would colleagues or family or those in

your profession, how would they describe you?

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Because I think it's important for people to

know your character, how strong or fierce you

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are, because that's how I know you.

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And later on, we can talk about how it

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affected you, workplace bullying and

intimidation.

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I know you might be humble about it, but give

us a picture in terms of how people describe

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how you describe yourself.

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Jessy: Thank you.

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Yeah, I think humility is really important,

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but I think what is really important as well

for people is to know who they are themselves,

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because otherwise you tend to go through life

in the eye of other people telling you who you

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are.

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And even as an adult, I have people telling me

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who I am, but I think it's really important to

know who you are and don't be humble about it.

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Know who you are and have your own boundary.

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So I think definitely I will describe myself

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as someone really positive, always keen for

discovery, keen for learning.

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I'm the type of person, if someone come to me

about an idea, I will never be the person who

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talks you down about something.

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I will be always positive about it and will

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say, let's go with it.

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And I think this has come with my education

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and my upbringing, when I've been told that I

could do everything I want and there were no

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limitation about everything I wanted to do.

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So I just kept this way of being from

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childhood and I took it from adulthood.

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And it's a bit difficult because you have

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adults around you who not dare to dream, not

dare to think about doing the next thing, not

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daring about pursuing the wildest dream and

goals.

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And I did it at the age of 24.

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I arrived in London.

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I think I met you quite nearly straight away,

and everybody knew me as Smiley Jessy, basically.

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And I never really changed until sometime

you've got people trying to dime your light

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and trying, but they tried and I'm still here,

I'm still and I'm still smiling.

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So this is what I do.

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Marylayo: That's great because that kind of

confirms what I would say about you, very

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strong, very fierce, and you've been, you've

been recognized by magazines in terms of being

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the most influential figure in the profession

that we're in, and then also Best Woman in

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Health and Safety category in the Women in

Construction and Engineering awards.

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So you've got quite a good collection of

accolades going, Jessey.

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And I'm bringing that out specifically because

I want people to be aware of how strong you

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are, like I said earlier, in terms of your

personality, your character, how driven you

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are, especially in terms of your career and

how you're able to balance that, even with

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family life and your studies, without going

into too many details.

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Because I know it might even be sensitive.

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But in terms of your experience of

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organizational bullying, tell us about that.

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So we have a bit of background in terms of

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what happened and how it then impacted you.

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Jessy: Yes. So as you mentioned earlier, I'm

an occupational health, safety and well being

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professional.

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So sometimes you go through work thinking like

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you are the one making system and processes in

place to protect people in their workplace,

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and sometime you are the person who've been

hurt in the workplace.

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And I think that there's certain category of

people in the workplace that are more easily

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targeted.

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When you are a woman or where you're not part

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of the majority demographic within a workplace

or within a society, often you just easily

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targeted.

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So I work in construction mainly, and

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construction is well known for being really

dominated industry, really tough industry due

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to the nature of the job, the nature of the

demand, really tight deadline, tight budget,

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and really high stress.

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So at one point in my career, I was working in

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an organization where man, this is not to

target a particular organization, but I think

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that in any organization there are always

certain people who's going to dim the name of

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the organization by doing things that the

organization do not allow to happen.

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And yes, I had this experience where I was

adding health and safety within a department

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brought in without a title and without a

raise, which sometimes it could be triggering

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for men, I think.

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It's not to pitch men against women.

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But in my case, it was a man who was probably

intimidated by me being who I am and being the

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way I am.

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It could be triggering for certain people to

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having a woman who really have this sense of

confidence about herself, knowing how to

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speak, being really confident on her own skin.

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I think it could trigger certain people.

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And I think this person just got triggered by

myself to the point that I couldn't speak on

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meeting.

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I was supposed to advise this person and I was

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becoming, I couldn't speak.

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Basically as soon as I tried to get one word

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out, this person will be talking of a meeting

to the point that I think at the beginning I

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just didn't notice.

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But then one day it just striked my mind when

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I started having anxiety of having to go to

the office.

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Think about it, you're just thinking, oh my

God, I'm not going to be able to be myself,

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I'm not going to be to show up and being as

confident, I feel diminished.

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I started losing my confidence and at some

point I shut down.

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I just stopped talking.

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Marylayo: And how long a period was this from

when you were this confident, outspoken person

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to then getting anxiety and not speaking?

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Jessy: I think to be honest, you know, when

you're a resilient and strong person, you

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don't see things immediately.

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No. So I think it took few months and to be

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honest, after nine to twelve months it was

confirmed.

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I knew that that person in particular was

making me feel a certain way and I knew that

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they were a problem.

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And you know what is the most difficult?

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It's you think that it's, you the problem at

the beginning.

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So I took a coach trying to gain confidence

and trying to being able to handle difficult

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conversation because I thought this person was

difficult or I didn't know how to speak with

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this person.

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And then I realized that I had everything.

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And I think this is what women need to

understand.

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We have everything it takes to lead.

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We have everything it takes to go for the next

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job.

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We have everything it takes to go for a

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wildest dream or wildest goal.

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We have it already inside us.

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You have to be careful of sometimes having

people talk to you down about who you are and

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trying to put you down in category and saying

jessey, you are this type of person.

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Jesse, you will never do a PhD. Jesse, you

will never enter UCL.

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Marylayo: Yeah, so many people hear those

words.

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Jessy: You can't do what you have to do, you

will never get married.

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I get married late.

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You never had children, had children late.

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So whatever people say, just believe you can

do it.

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Marylayo: Was it this coach then this coaching

experience that helped you to get to that

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point of realizing?

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Jessy: Definitely.

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I took a coach and I took a woman because I

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wanted someone to understand what it is to

work in a heavily men industry.

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But something really important, I had mentors

as well and men mentors.

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I think this is really important and what I

didn't had in a workplace, and I would like to

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emphasize it's a sponsor, someone behind

closed door who will say jessie is doing a

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good job.

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I know, Jessey, she's deserved this promotion,

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she's deserved this pay rise.

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You need to find someone who will say, oh, I

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know how you work and vouch for you, because

otherwise, I mean, everybody has different

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goals.

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But I know that my goal in life is to have my

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highest best life as possible.

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Life is short.

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And for me, I'm really ambitious.

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So for me it's having challenging things to do

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and trying to challenge myself and learn new

things and learn from my leaders and learn

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from my manager and learn from my peers as

well.

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But also it could be reversed as well, reverse

mentoring and helping someone who is a lower

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level who wants to go hub as well.

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So, yeah, this is my experience of

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intimidation and bullying in a workplace.

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And I had line manager as well who were like,

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oh, Jessy, why would you want to go for the next

promotion?

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It's hard, it's really hard.

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And the more you go higher and the more is

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difficult.

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I was supposed to say to myself, oh, yes, I

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think I'm just going to stay for 20 years

where I am, and I'm not going to try to go for

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the next opportunity, and I'm not going to try

to have a better paycheck, for example,

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because I have aspiration.

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I'd like to travel more, I'd like to do

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things.

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I have a family, I'd like my children to do

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things in life.

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Marylayo: But you didn't allow those words to.

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Jessy: Push you back no. Where you were,

because you have to believe that the higher

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forces that will help you to get where you

want to be and you can't rely on people.

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That's why I was saying earlier that you need

to know yourself really well, because

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otherwise other people will talk you down your

own dream.

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And I think it's important to don't share with

small mind your greatest ideas.

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Marylayo: Because they will be able to receive

it or appreciate it or support you enough.

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So you talked about anxiety and not talking

anymore in the workplace, talked about self

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doubts.

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Was there any other, like, I would say,

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symptoms that you remember that you had heart

racing.

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Jessy: And I think this was coming with

anxiety.

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And I think I really describe on my TEDx what

was like for me to be in this turmoil where

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you're depressed, you're anxious, you're

hopeless, you know you can't stay in this job,

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but you know that why would you leave your

job?

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Because you didn't do anything wrong.

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And why all of a sudden you become the woman

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to destroy just because you speak up?

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Marylayo: Yeah, you mentioned something really

important, because from my experience of those

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in my network who have gone through

intimidation in the workplace, they too are

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very what I would call ambitious individuals.

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And even though they've been in a toxic

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environment, they are hearing negative things,

getting negative vibes and being put down.

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One of the reasons why they don't leave that

toxic environment is because they feel that

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they haven't done anything wrong.

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And why should they be the ones that are

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pushed out?

Which I think is a very difficult situation to

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be in, because you've got people who will be

telling you, leave, you don't need this, it's

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not helping you.

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You're struggling, it's making you depressed,

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it's becoming traumatic for you.

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And yet they refuse to leave for

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understandable reasons.

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So is this something you can relate to?

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And what was the advice you were getting from,

let's just say your support network.

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Jessy: Okay. I think every situation is

different and I was fortunate enough that I

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could afford to leave.

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I mean, I couldn't really afford because I

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just had a child, but I allow myself to say my

health was more important and I was really

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supported by my husband and I decided that I

leave my job.

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And it was quite brutal because actually I

didn't even have time to speak with my

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husband, even though he knew I was going

through some challenges for a few years.

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When I quit my job, I decided that I'm

resigning.

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He was on a spot and he was on the first day

returning from maternity leave, which was

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quite traumatic.

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So I think for me, I will say for anybody

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going through this, think about your health

first.

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You just can't stay in this type of

environment because it's just going to worsen

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your symptom.

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And I think that you need to trust your body.

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Your body is going to show you and is going to

behave to stress.

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It's going to have some physiological effects.

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And I went through that and who deserve to

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have to go through that?

You don't deserve just go, just find a new

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job, just go with plenty of organization out

there or take legal action as well.

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But it's not without consequence as well

because it can take many years to have an

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outcome as well.

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And you will be gaslighted as well.

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This is something you need to be prepared.

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It's like if you have this sense of you

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haven't done anything wrong, think about going

to the court and have to prove everything.

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So it's really crucial that you keep evidence

of everything because in the workplace they

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are really clever.

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Everything will be, let's have a chat behind a

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closed door.

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Nothing will be in writing.

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Just go back to your desk and write everything

down, everything you remember, just writing

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down and said to the person, as per our

conversation, as British people like to say,

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and you just put down everything you remember,

every fact, everything, and you build up your

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case until you get to the courtroom.

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Marylayo: Jessey, you're just reminding me how

strong, even though you were.

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Yes, seriously.

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Because what you're saying is very true and

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people know that.

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But even to write something down after, let's

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just call it an encounter, an experience, and

put it on record and send it to the other

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person.

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Let's just say a line manager.

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That's a hard thing to do because, number one,

that individual is feeling very vulnerable and

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it's almost like signaling to, let's just say,

the person who has been intimidating them,

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that, you know what?

I'm putting this on record and I'm sending

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this to you.

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And when you're in such a low place, being

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very vulnerable and being able to take that

step takes a lot.

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Jessy: I made the mistakes along the way, but

I think with mistakes and experience come

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learning.

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And this is why I'm here today, because I

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learn from what I went through and I think I

have a lot to share about my experience of

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bullying, harassment, discrimination in a

workplace, maternity discrimination, and also

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the fact that you don't get promoted in a

workplace as well.

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I learned a lot, yes.

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Marylayo: So what would you say are the key

things that you learned about yourself?

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What were the key things Jesse learned about

myself?

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Jessy: I learned that I'm extremely resilient.

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I learn also that I have limits and I have to

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know when I reach those limits and take a

break and then keep going.

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Marylayo: And when you say take a break, what

does taking a break look like?

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Jessy: For me, most of the time is going away

from traveling where I am.

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Yeah.

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So, for example, I live in London, I live in

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UK, I go away, I go somewhere.

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And sometimes what it means, I go on my own,

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it means that I leave the kids behind and I

leave my husband behind.

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Because at the end of the day, to be happy,

you need to find your own happiness.

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To be a good mum, you need to be good to

yourself.

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To be a good wife, you have to be good to

yourself.

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So I learned to be good to me because I think

that if I don't do that to me, I don't know

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who's going to do that to you.

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I can't wait for my husband to be good to me.

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He's good to me, but I have to show him how to

treat me.

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I have to show people how to treat me.

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So by always making sure I'm putting myself

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first and I look after myself, fitness is

really important to me.

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Mental health, having time for me, I show to

my children as well that this is what my

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version of being a good mum is.

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Because for me, it's important to be healthy.

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As a parent, you don't want to bring your

wound to your children.

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You want to show that, oh, Mummy is going to

exercise.

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My daughter see me living and said, oh, she's

going to exercise.

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And she knows it's important to look after

yourself.

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Marylayo: So I like that.

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So you've talked about what you learned about

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yourself is about being strong, having.

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Jessy: Limits, boundaries as well.

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I think it's really important if you don't

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show to people how to treat you.

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They will always step over your boundaries.

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And I think boundaries is something you have

to put on in any relationship with your

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friends, but also at work, principally at

work, because then, for example, you can

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easily get to a point that you can't say to

people, hold on 1 second.

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You gave me that to do two days ago and you

said it's a priority, and now you're asking me

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to do this.

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What is a priority for today?

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Because I can't do everything.

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And I know some people will get anxious and

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won't say anything and will be suck it in,

trying to squeeze everything and not being

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able to say, hold on 1 second, I just can't do

all of this.

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Marylayo: And it certainly was important for

you to have those boundaries and labels.

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Jessy: So I think set up your boundaries and

know your limit, because otherwise this could

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deal to frustration, anxieties being

depressed, hopeless and thinking that you're

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in a wrong place.

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But sometimes it's all about you trying to

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work with what you have as well, and trying to

say, okay, this is the way you were treated

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me.

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Let me show you now how I want to be treated.

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And from today on, if you have something to

give it to me, you give to me the timescale.

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What is the time frame around this work you're

asking me to do?

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Because I have already this and this.

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Marylayo: To do, so having that conversation

and making it clear.

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Jessy: And you have to know yourself to be

able to set up these boundaries.

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Marylayo: And I think you'd also need to grow

in yourself to be able to do that, because

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that might not be natural to some people.

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Jessy: And it come also with age.

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The approaching to her 40s Jesse is not the

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same of the mid 20s Jesse that arrive in UK.

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Obviously, I wasn't that confident when I

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arrived.

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I couldn't even speak English.

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So definitely you don't hold yourself tall

when you just can't speak the language and you

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don't understand what people are saying to

you.

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So obviously my confidence came with years.

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So I'll say to people, don't compare your

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chapter one with someone chapter eight,

because I've got over 15 years under my belt

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as well.

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So take time and build up and have a plan.

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Because I often said to myself and when I was

25, I will be working with these men who will

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be in their they will be always saying I have

25 years experience.

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And I will be always thinking ****, I will

never be taken seriously until I get to this

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25 years experience.

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Which is like, it's a long, long time and I'm

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still not there yet.

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Just do the work.

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Just do the work.

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Marylayo: What would you say to people who

have a loved one?

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They have, for example, a friend or a spouse

or maybe a child who's going through this in

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the workplace yeah.

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What would you advise them to do to support

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that individual?

Based on the support that you received at the

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time from your friends, from your support

network or not, what would you be able to

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advise them?

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Jessy: Yeah, I think what is really difficult

is sometimes someone going through a

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challenging time will tempt to isolate

themselves.

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So isolation is a result of this.

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But if you really close in an inner circle,

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it's trying to get the person out of our

environment, out of what's going on, and give

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them space also to speak about it if they want

to, and be really candid and respectful about

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it.

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And also ask them, what do you want me to do?

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Do you want me to listen or do you want me to

say something?

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Because sometimes you just want someone to

listen and don't have to comment, I think.

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So just be there and give them the option and

say, I'm here for you if you need to speak,

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because it could be really isolating.

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And sometimes people will go and reach to you.

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And I remember myself going and reaching to

some people who never come back to me.

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Marylayo: Right.

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Jessy: And to this day, I remember that when I

was at my lowest, I reached out to you, you

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just didn't reply, didn't even acknowledge my

message.

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If someone reached out to you once and didn't

come back after, just go to them and say, I'm

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here if you need to speak.

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I'm here if you need to go for a walk.

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I think these type of things really help me to

go for walks, do different things.

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And also, if you have this option to get out

of your workplace environment, just do it, be

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there for the person.

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::

Marylayo: Thank you so much, Jessie, for all

those nuggets.

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There was a lot in there for people to be able

to digest, including myself.

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So thanks so much for sharing your experience

and being so candid in terms of what you went

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::

through and with the advice that you're giving

people release.

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And for everyone who's listening, thanks for

joining me and hope to see you soon.

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Here's a spiritual wellness tip that you can

meditate on.

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It's Romans, chapter eight, verse 28, and it

reads and we know that all things work

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together for good to those who love God, to

those who are called according to his purpose.

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Thank you listening.

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Do follow and join me again next time on Mary

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::

layo Talks Beyond the Smile.

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About the Podcast

Beyond the Smile
with MaryLayo
Beyond the Smile - with MaryLayo is about issues and life events that negatively affect our mental health and spiritual wellbeing (biblical perspective). Various topics will be discussed, alongside guests, to help listeners understand more about their challenges and learn how they can live a more free and radiant life.

About your host

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MaryLayo Talks

MaryLayo is a podcaster, with a strong interest in mental wellbeing, social justice and issues which affect the lives of vulnerable individuals and communities. She has extensive experience in research programme management, and like research, sees her podcast as a way – through the help of guests, to find out relevant, useful information to share, inform and help others (but with the fun-factor thrown in).

MaryLayo is keen for the messages of her Christian faith to be relatable to the everyday person and volunteers for several charities. Her hobbies include voice-overs, singing and travelling.