Still Procrastinating?

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Speaker A: Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a

podcast that discusses mental health and

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spiritual well being.

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Before we jump in, there may be episodes that

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are particularly sensitive for some listeners,

and if that applies, then I hope you'll be

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able to join me whenever you feel ready and

able.

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My guest today is Deacon Joe Ferrari, and it's

all about procrastination.

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Deacon Joe is also a professor of psychology

at DePaul University in Chicago, and he's

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author of Still Procrastinating the no Regret

Guide to Getting It Done.

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So we started off discussing the difference

between procrastinating and being a

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procrastinator.

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Let's join in the conversation.

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In your research, you mentioned about how

everyone procrastinates, but not everyone is a

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procrastinator.

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So tell me about that.

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What's procrastination and what isn't?

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Speaker B: It sure, that's a quote.

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I said that a number of years ago because

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everybody might delay or wait or ponder, but

not everyone is a chronic procrastinator.

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This is something that people misunderstand.

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They think procrastination is laziness or poor

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time management or a variety of other things,

and it's not.

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And that's 20% of adult men and women,

individuals who make this their maladaptive

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lifestyle.

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Speaker A: 20% is a lot of people.

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It is, yeah.

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That's a significant statistic.

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Speaker B: It's higher than depression,

phobias, panic attack, higher than alcoholism

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or substance abuse.

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And my interest since the 1980s has been on

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the study of these chronic procrastinators.

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Speaker A: So tell us more about these chronic

procrastinators.

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Speaker B: Procrastination is an active

avoidance strategy.

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It's something people do that is irrational,

that makes no sense.

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Speaker A: So then why do people procrastinate

if it doesn't make sense?

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It's almost like a self sabotage kind of

strategy.

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Why do people procrastinate?

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Speaker B: Yes, it is a self sabotaging

because if I never finish, I can never fail.

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And if I never fail, I can always hold on to a

belief that I'm capable, I'm good, I'm

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skilled.

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We'll never know because I never finish.

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But I can tell you that I am.

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You see, chronic procrastinators, that 20%.

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That people who are the procrastinator.

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They would rather have other people think they

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lacked effort than lacking ability.

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If I finish something and the task isn't very

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done very well, then you're going to think

less of me.

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Yes, if I delay, you'll think less of me.

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But my ability is not being challenged.

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It's not being publicly shamed if you would

publicly verified or publicly assessed.

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So I'd rather you think I didn't try than I

can't do it.

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All right, so fear of failure, but even fear

of success.

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Your question why then people do it?

Boy, that's a broad topic.

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And I tried to explain that in my book Still

Procrastinating, because this is not time

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delay.

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To tell the chronic procrastinator, just do it

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would be like saying to a clinically depressed

person, cheer up, that's not going to work.

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There is far more to this.

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It's not a time management issue.

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It's not a laziness issue because the chronic

procrastinator is not lazy.

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They're working very hard doing other things.

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Speaker A: So the fact that these, let's just

say 20% of the is this the global population?

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Yes.

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Speaker B: And this is not just people you

would find in the US.

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Because when I've done my studies, I've done

this internationally, it almost sounds like

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human beings.

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Some people are born this way, and they're not

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born this way because it's so global.

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It almost sounds like, wasn't that just a

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human trait, something people do?

Well, no, because 80% of people don't do it.

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Speaker A: Okay, so those 20%, which is

significant, like I mentioned, why is it not

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such a topical issue?

And why is it overlooked?

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Speaker B: It has become.

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When I began starting this in the late eighty

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s eighty eight eighty, there was no research

on it.

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Now I'm seeing more and more so people are

beginning to become more interested in this

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topic.

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Some people still confuse.

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Remember your opening statement that everybody

procrastinates, but not everyone will

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procrastinate.

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People still confuse that because they look at

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academic procrastination.

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Well, yes, students delay 70% of them.

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But I said 20% are chronic.

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Does that mean as we get older, we do it less?

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No, we're talking about two different things.

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Clearly, the 70% includes the 20.

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Students may delay studying, reading, writing

a paper, but they won't delay if there's a

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party.

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They won't delay if there's free beer.

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They won't delay if there's a concert for

somebody they want to really, really see.

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So they're not procrastinators, they

procrastinate.

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It goes back to that original statement

before.

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So why then is this so common and so treated

trivially?

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I don't know if that's the right word, but why

isn't it taken seriously enough?

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Because they're great excuse makers.

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Because the chronic procrastinator that 20%

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always has a reason.

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What we found in my studies is logically,

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they're equally as intelligent as the non

procrastinator, and you got to be to keep

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coming up with plausible, believable excuses.

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The problem is they never take the ownership.

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Now, this is really interesting because their

chronic procrastinators are looking to be

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verified that it's okay to do it.

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Now people are beginning to talk about the

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positive parts of procrastination, that it's

good to procrastinate.

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I've seen some recent studies on that, and I'm

like, no, you're not talking about

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procrastination anymore.

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Speaker A: Right.

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Yeah, that doesn't make sense.

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Speaker B: They call it things like structured

procrastinating.

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Take your tasks and organize it.

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Well, obviously, if I've got a list of things

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to do, the ones on the bottom of the list are

going to be delayed.

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But that's not procrastinating, because I'm

working on my list.

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The real procrastinator never works on that

list, does one or two and stops and then

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reshuffles it and makes copies of it.

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So there's nothing positive.

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This is a maladaptive lifestyle, and it's

something that our cultures, western cultures

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at least, seem to be accepting.

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Speaker A: There can be a lot of consequences

for someone that is a chronic procrastinator.

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So let's just use the workplace as an example.

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So if someone has a project and, well, they've

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put off doing that project yeah.

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They can come up with an excuse why it's late

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in terms of delivery, or they can come up with

an excuse why it's maybe not the standard that

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it should on delivery because they haven't put

as much effort within a reasonable time.

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So the impact on the individual as well as the

impact example in organization, there's quite

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a bit of consequences when it comes to someone

who is a chronic procrastinator.

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Speaker B: Yes, there was a number of studies.

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This is the field of I O psychology and

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consumer psychology.

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This is the research of industrial

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organizational psychologists.

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I'm not an I O psychologist, but I have

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dabbled in that I teach doctoral students and

sometimes I have these I O doctoral students

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from my department.

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Anyway, the point is, yes, there's

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implications.

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A study was done a long time ago, not by me,

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that found that this was done actually, I want

to say almost ten years ago, but it costs

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$10,000 per employee per year that's lost

because of procrastination.

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So if you've got 40 people in your company, 20

people in your company, you've lost $200,000.

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Right.

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Or $400,000 just because people

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procrastinated.

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That's implications for a company.

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All right.

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What procrastinators don't understand in the

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workplace or in life is that life is not about

me, it's about other people.

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And so if you asked me to do something and you

gave me two or three weeks to do it, and

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that's a reasonable time to do it, what if you

ask me at the last minute?

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That's different.

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But if you gave me a sufficient time to work

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on something and I still don't do it, well,

then I'm delaying the next person in the

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business, which delays the next person you

see.

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And that's not fair because the world isn't

about me, it's about we.

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There was an old expression if you want

something done, give it to a busy person.

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Well, what does that mean?

How can that be?

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Because the busy person values time, your

time, their time.

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So somebody who's very active and busy will

get things done because they recognize, I've

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got to be able to juggle what I need and their

need and what has to get done.

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That's why that works.

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Suppose you're on a team and one of the

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members is a procrastinator.

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How do the other members view that person?

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And what if the other members are also one of

them, a procrastinator?

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What we found was procrastinators in the

workplace, in life, don't like other

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procrastinators.

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Speaker A: Right?

Yeah.

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Speaker B: That's very fascinating.

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So if you're looking for comfort because you

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know the oral expression, misery loves

company?

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That's not true.

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They don't like it.

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They don't like each other.

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Why?

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Speaker A: Let me take a guess.

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Let me take a stab.

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Is that because earlier we were talking about

self sabotaging strategies.

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So it's okay ish inverted commas for someone

themselves to choose to sabotage what they're

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doing, but if it's linked to someone else

doing it, then they won't like it, because

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that's true.

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Speaker B: Then you're sabotaging me as well.

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I see what you're pointing.

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That's a good point, perhaps.

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That's certainly a variable.

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There's a concept in social psychology we call

social loafing.

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It's when you have a group, a task in the

workplace, classroom assignment, and sometimes

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the boss or the teacher might say, I'm going

to give one grade for the whole group.

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I don't care how much people work, I just need

one report.

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I want one thing done.

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Get it to me.

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Well, you will have loafing in that.

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People will loaf because if I'm not going to

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be individually assessed, then I'm going to

take my time and let other people carry the

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weight for me.

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Yeah, procrastinators are very good at doing

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that.

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So, yeah, we don't like them because you're

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making me carry the weight.

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But what's fascinating is they're more

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disliked by their own kind.

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That's what's interesting.

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Speaker A: So someone who's a procrastinator,

they're obviously not going to be happy.

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There'll be that anxiety, that regret, in

terms of their approach, they would want to

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change.

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How could someone change?

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As in, what would the steps be?

Is that covered in your book?

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Speaker B: Yes, but I also want to say I'm not

sure that they want to change.

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If you're in a culture that says it's okay,

we'll give you slack, we don't want you to

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feel bad about who you are.

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We don't want you to feel bad about other

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things, then why should I bother?

And I'm a good excuse maker.

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Remember, human beings are good excuse makers.

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All right, so if I've got that angle down and

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you're willing to give me slack, I'm not sure

I want to change because it's never my fault.

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It's always something else.

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Do they have regrets?

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Yes.

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I found this not only in the US.

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We found this with the Israeli sample as well,

that there are life regrets among chronic

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procrastinators, things that they missed out.

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Now, there's a great measure on life regrets.

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It covers a whole bunch of different domains.

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And honestly, this was done a number of years

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ago, I can't remember, but they have regrets

in some areas more than others.

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I believe in relationships, in careers, but in

other areas they don't.

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So what can I do?

Is what you're asking if I want to change, if

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I want to change, and I'm one of the 20%, I'm

sorry.

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Listener you need professional help.

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You need a good cognitive behavior therapist

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CBT, because you need to change the way you

look at things cognitive and the way you act.

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It's not time management.

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Let's talk about that.

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There have been what are called metaanalyses.

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This is a research tool scientists sometimes

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use.

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It's not a literature review.

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It's really more than just a review of the

literature.

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But the scientist takes all the literature and

puts parts of it into a statistical formula

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and it looks to see what works, what doesn't,

not just reviewing the literature.

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All right, so it does an analysis, meta

analysis.

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Of all the other studies, bottom line was the

least effective technique to deal with

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procrastination is time management.

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That was found in two different metaanalyses

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papers that were done a few years apart.

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So I can't tell you how many times in the news

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the suggestions are time management.

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For the procrastination, it's the least

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effective.

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What was most effective?

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Cognitive behavior therapy.

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Changing the way people think and the way

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people act.

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Because you can't control time.

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The only thing you manage in your life is

yourself.

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You can't manage time.

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It's like a stream.

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Time keeps moving on.

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There's an expression you can't control the

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wind, but you can adjust your sales.

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You can adjust the way you act.

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That's why the book is called Still

Procrastinating, because all these time

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management techniques have not worked.

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And I go through what they have done and why

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it doesn't work.

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And what does the literature show?

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The true procrastinators who take it to heart

begin to realize, you know, you're right, I've

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got to get on with life.

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Life is too short.

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I only have 70, 80 years.

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Let me enjoy it more.

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Speaker A: So, Reverend Joe, what would you

like to leave the listeners with?

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Speaker B: That while it sounded like most of

what I've said to you is shaming you, making

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you feel bad about yourself, absolutely not.

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Flip it.

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So I want listeners to know you're not alone.

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I want listeners to know you learned to be a

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procrastinator and therefore you can unlearn.

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It's not genetic.

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You can change, and you should.

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What do you do when you fail?

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Do you get up and do you rise again?

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Speaker A: I love that.

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So it's about giving yourself grace and not

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being afraid of failing.

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Because if you do, you can always pick

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yourself up and keep on moving.

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What you've learnt can be unlearned.

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All right on that.

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Thank you so much, Reverend Joe, for sharing

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your knowledge and your advice on

procrastination.

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Here's a spiritual wellness tip that you can

meditate on.

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It's Hebrews, chapter twelve, verse eleven,

and it reads now all discipline seems to be

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painful at the time, yet later it will produce

a transformation of character, bringing a

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harvest of righteousness and peace to those

who yield to it.

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Thank you for listening.

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Do follow.

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And join me again next time on Marylayo Talks

Beyond the Smile.