All Work, No Play
All Work and No Play - Insights on Burnout
In today's episode of MaryLayo Talks, I’m with guest Dr Karen Michell. Karen, an occupational health nurse with experience in academia, shares her experience of going through burnout, both as a worker and a boss, and how it impacted her mental health.
The conversation and questions include:
- What is burnout?
- What are the common signs of burnout?
- What burnout symptoms did you experience?
- What triggered the burnout?
- How did you come to realise you had burnout?
- How many times have you experienced burnout?
- What key steps did you take to overcome burnout?
- What do you do to keep you from burning out again?
- What advice would you give to someone who is currently experiencing burnout?
- How faith in God helped in the burnout process.
- Bible verses for burnout.
Take a moment to delve into what may be 'beyond the smile' - listen in to the conversation.
Guest details:
Karen is a wife and mother with two grandsons. She is also an occupational health nurse practitioner with over 25 years’ international experience spanning occupational health, safety, research, and education. Her professional experience is underpinned by a strong academic and research background which extended into occupational safety and health (OSH) consultancy in pharmaceutical, construction, logistics, healthcare and manufacturing sectors.
Karen's a Fellow of the Academy of Nursing in South Africa in recognition of her contribution to research and practice in occupational health nursing. She is an accomplished international author and presenter on multiple occupational safety and health related subjects.
MaryLayo's spiritual wellbeing tip: Meditate on the bible scripture Colossians 1:11.
Related resources: Also check out podcasts Episode 1: Running on Empty & Episode 8: Helping the Helper.
Connect with MaryLayo:
For help in dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.
Transcript
1
::MaryLayo: Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a podcast
that.
2
::MaryLayo: Discusses mental health and
spiritual well being.
3
::Before we jump in, there may be episodes that
are particularly sensitive for some.
4
::MaryLayo: Listeners, and if that applies, then
I hope you'll be able to join me.
5
::MaryLayo: Whenever you feel ready and able.
6
::Karen: You.
7
::MaryLayo: In today's episode, we'll be talking
about burnout, and my guest is Dr. Karen
8
::Michell.
9
::I thought it'd be good to invite Karen as
10
::she's experienced burnout and is an
occupational health nurse practitioner with
11
::over 25 years international experience
spanning occupational health, safety research
12
::and education.
13
::I started off by asking Karen to describe
14
::burnout.
15
::Let's have a listen.
16
::MaryLayo: So let's start with the basics.
17
::How would you describe burnout?
18
::Karen: Well, I think one of the things that is
important to remember is it's not a medical
19
::diagnosis, so it's not really very easy to
define, but it's basically your body's
20
::response to unrelenting and unmanageable
stress from the working environment.
21
::Three common things that you'll see in people
with burnout is they will be physically and
22
::mentally exhausted, they will have these
negative attitudes to work and will actually
23
::start withdrawing and with a lot of sense of
negativity associated with it as well.
24
::But as I say, from one person to another, your
experiences may differ, which makes it a
25
::difficult concept to get your head around.
26
::MaryLayo: Sure. So how many times have you
experienced burnout?
27
::Twice.
28
::Karen: I mean, I honestly thought had it once
would never happen again, but yes, it's
29
::happened to me twice.
30
::MaryLayo: To me, that just highlights how
easy, if I can use that word, how easy it can
31
::be for someone to get to that place where
they've experienced burnout.
32
::Karen: And I think one of the things to
remember is it's not a case that you get
33
::burnout, you get treated and it's over.
34
::It's actually then the ability to have this
35
::lifelong learning and understand that what you
did to get rid of it, you need to sustain in
36
::your life.
37
::MaryLayo: Right. That's interesting.
38
::So, Karen, the first time you experienced
39
::burnout, what was life like or working life
like?
40
::Because you mentioned about work related, I
guess it's a work related issue and that
41
::sparks two things for me.
42
::One is, can someone experience burnout just
43
::even by being overwhelmed by personal
circumstances?
44
::And then secondly, how was life like for you
before you first experienced burnout?
45
::Karen: I think one of the important things to
remember is that your life experiences may
46
::contribute to it, but just having personal
life experiences does not constitute burnout.
47
::Burnout.
48
::It definitely stems from the working
49
::environment, things around you.
50
::So for me, I've always been a doer, a go
51
::getter.
52
::I've always seen myself as a person who
53
::thrives under stress.
54
::But what happened to me was I joined a new job
55
::in academics, which was something I hadn't
really trained for in my basic training.
56
::It was new people as well as it being a new
job, it was brand new curricula.
57
::So we didn't even have programs developed.
58
::So a lot of it was kind of like making a plan
59
::as we went along.
60
::And then I was perceived as being a doer, so I
61
::was just given more and more responsibility.
62
::My students were younger than me, so I just
63
::had an accumulation of things that worked
against me.
64
::And then I had a boss who just kept loading
and I didn't have the ability and the skills
65
::to actually kick back and say, hey, let's
stop.
66
::And I just want to add and then I think
personality also kicks in here because I
67
::perceived myself as being somebody who would
cope with anything.
68
::So I just thought, well, I'll get through
this, I'll get through this.
69
::MaryLayo: I guess the things that stand out
for me is that there was a lot coming on you
70
::in a short period of time.
71
::There wasn't that ability to be able to adjust
72
::and increase capacity.
73
::And plus it got to the point where the
74
::workload was beyond your capacity in terms of
the level of work and how much was involved.
75
::And it wasn't managed not necessarily by you,
I'm not saying you, but it wasn't managed
76
::appropriately by others that could have
supported that process or been more cognizant
77
::of the situation.
78
::Karen: Yeah, no, very much so.
79
::And you know what, I just want to add into the
80
::mix of us at a time when mental health issues
were really not on the radar and also in an
81
::environment like an academic environment, you
have this philosophy of publish or perish.
82
::So it is just keep going, keep going.
83
::Even if others aren't putting pressure on you,
84
::you'll tend to do it yourself because that's
the only way you're going to progress within
85
::this environment.
86
::MaryLayo: A lot of pressure.
87
::That's what I'm feeling.
88
::A lot of pressure.
89
::And so what was your symptoms then?
90
::I guess it was what you described earlier.
91
::Karen: Well, you know what, for me it was
quite interesting because I didn't notice them
92
::in the beginning and a lot of those earlier
symptoms, like I was getting a lot of
93
::musculoskeletal pain, headaches,
gastrointestinal problems, and I kept
94
::rationalizing them as being something else.
95
::And it was only when I started to lose it, as
96
::people would say, I mean, from having been a
very organized and collected individual,
97
::suddenly I just didn't have the same level of
patience at work.
98
::I had a great mentor at work who just said to
me, you just don't seem to have a passion for
99
::this.
100
::And yet I was in what I saw as my ideal job.
101
::I loved what I was doing, I loved where I was.
102
::But it was how it was coming across that this
103
::manifestation in me.
104
::And it was only when those individuals started
105
::saying to me, you need to take a look at where
you are, that I then started to think a little
106
::bit more about where I was at and realized
this is not the me I know.
107
::And that's what kind of made me realize I had
to do something about my situation.
108
::MaryLayo: And how long was this period from
when you started this new role to where you
109
::got to that point where you realized that you
had to do something?
110
::Karen: You know what?
I would say it was probably a good year before
111
::it was so bad that I realized that I needed to
do something about it.
112
::I mean, I've always been the kind of person
that thought, I'll get through it, I'll get
113
::through it.
114
::This is normal.
115
::But, yeah, I'd say good year.
116
::Before, I actually made a concerted effort of
117
::trying to get help.
118
::MaryLayo: And you mentioned how your mentor
was the one that had that conversation with
119
::you.
120
::Did others around you notice what was going on
121
::and how you like, you mentioned how you didn't
recognize yourself.
122
::Did others around you recognize that as well?
123
::Karen: You know, what my husband did, he kind
of picked up that there were changes.
124
::But one of the things that I was doing as a
result of this was I was actually withdrawing
125
::from my social contacts.
126
::I think I was just so physically and mentally
127
::exhausted at that time that I didn't want to
interact if I didn't need to.
128
::So people around me were friends and other
family weren't really seeing it.
129
::They would make comments like, we haven't seen
you for ages.
130
::Yes, it was one of my symptoms that I started
withdrawing socially.
131
::MaryLayo: Right.
132
::And like, what you're saying reminds me of
133
::friends that I know who have experienced
burnout.
134
::Those were the signs as well.
135
::They too started withdrawing.
136
::So, yeah, it's just ringing bells to me in
terms of the similarities.
137
::So you got to that point where you knew you
had to do something.
138
::What did you do?
What was that action, that step that you took?
139
::Karen: Well, not clearly at that stage of my
life, understanding what it was all about.
140
::I just thought to myself that I must just need
some medication to help me cope better.
141
::And I went to go and see my GP, and I was just
very fortunate.
142
::I had a very good GP who said, I'm not giving
you medication.
143
::I want you to go and see a counselor because I
can medicate you, but I'm not going to solve
144
::your problem.
145
::You need to make changes from within.
146
::So for me, the big thing was I saw an
educational psychologist, okay.
147
::And she taught me how to understand what I was
going through and what I needed to do to
148
::actually get through it.
149
::MaryLayo: I don't think I've heard of
educational psychologists.
150
::Please elaborate a bit more.
151
::Karen: Well, educational psychologists,
remember, I was in an academic environment,
152
::okay?
So educational psychologists, they really
153
::specialize in the field of education, normally
with learners who have learning disorders and
154
::that kind of thing.
155
::But it was deemed that because of the
156
::environment that I was in that would be a
suitable person to assist me get through it
157
::and it was a good choice for me.
158
::MaryLayo: Okay, brilliant.
159
::And how long was that?
160
::And I'm assuming you took time out from work
during this period, or am.
161
::Karen: I no time off work?
Unfortunately, I was in a country where it
162
::doesn't provide for that.
163
::You basically either took sick leave and there
164
::was limited sick leave available to you.
165
::But again, it was my personality that kind of
166
::got in my way because I had these students who
were dependent on me and I didn't want to let
167
::them down.
168
::So was another reason that I wanted to carry
169
::on working.
170
::But what the counseling sessions did for me
171
::was I went weekly for a good three months and
then I went less frequently.
172
::So I had this constant support from somebody
who understood my environment and then was
173
::able to help me negotiate my way through
resolving those organizational issues at work
174
::so that I would be able to get myself into a
better space.
175
::MaryLayo: I guess I'm wowed.
176
::Really?
177
::The fact that you still was in that
pressurized environment with a lot of
178
::commitments that comes with it and you were
able to get through it because you had that
179
::support, so that support was really key.
180
::And I think what you mentioned about how the
181
::counselor understood your environment and was
able to help you help you through it, I mean,
182
::that's really good.
183
::So then that was your first experience of
184
::burnout.
185
::So was there anything that you put in place
186
::that you think was key to help you to be in a
position where you didn't even need that
187
::external support and you were in a much better
place in terms of your mental health and well
188
::being?
189
::Karen: One of the things that I got to
understand through the process was the fact
190
::that the organizational aspect needed to be
addressed.
191
::So one of the things that I gained was skills
in how to negotiate better with my boss.
192
::I had a boss who was a bit of a bully in a
sense, so I found ways of negotiating and then
193
::also how I could address conflict because I've
never been one for conflict resolution.
194
::I would avoid conflict rather than resolve it,
which doesn't help because the problem stays.
195
::So I was taught how to enter into conflict
resolution.
196
::And yes, one of the things that we did was I
had a mediator in place at work.
197
::So in other words, it got to the stage that
whenever my work schedule was going to be
198
::changed, the mediator had to be involved so
she could also help manage expectations and
199
::make sure I wasn't put into a situation where
work was just constantly being piled on.
200
::MaryLayo: Okay, there's a couple of things you
mentioned that I've really picked up on
201
::because one was about ways to negotiate.
202
::So for example, I mentioned about knowing
203
::people who, it's evident they are in a
position that they can't say no or they find
204
::it very difficult because they're intimidated,
for example, by their boss, their manager.
205
::So I'm really interested in how you learnt
those ways to negotiate.
206
::Was it a course or was it advice?
How did you learn that?
207
::Karen: It was actually in these counseling
sessions.
208
::One of the things is that I suppose it's
skills that you could learn in a course.
209
::But what would happen is the person I was
working with would say to me, I had to
210
::identify something in the past week that had
almost been a trigger for me.
211
::And then we would sit down and she would say,
well, what is the resolution that you want
212
::from this and how could you get there?
And she would help me work out.
213
::So for example, I might have to identify the
fact that going into an argument with a
214
::solution was better than just saying I can't
do this, go in and explain clearly why, but
215
::have a solution involved and then I'd have to
go and implement it and report back in my next
216
::session.
217
::MaryLayo: Accountability.
218
::Karen: If I hadn't been brave enough to do it,
we would then address what was then holding me
219
::back that I couldn't do that.
220
::So a lot of this was skills that I needed to
221
::learn and I was pretty young at the time as
well, so I think it's also I didn't really
222
::have those kind of life skills at that stage
that I could rely on.
223
::So I needed that help from somebody who knew
what it was that I needed to do, but without
224
::telling me A to C, but kind of guiding me how
to get through that process myself.
225
::MaryLayo: Sure. The person sounds like a great
counselor.
226
::Karen: I must just tell you one of the
sentences from one of our sessions I really
227
::kind of benefited from the most was I think
I'd been going for six months.
228
::And she said to me, I now think you're ready
to go out on probation.
229
::And what I mean by probation is you're not
cured.
230
::You are always going to slip back if you don't
continue with these life skills.
231
::She made it clear the door is always open.
232
::But I should have realized then that what she
233
::was telling me is this can happen again.
234
::MaryLayo: Sure, okay, we'll come back to that.
235
::But the other thing that you mentioned I found
236
::really interesting was mediation.
237
::You had a mediator at work, so how and why
238
::it's something that I'm not used to hearing.
239
::Karen: So one of the things was that I was
advised through these sessions again to find
240
::somebody at work that I trusted who had a
similar level of authority as my boss.
241
::I did.
242
::I had an individual who I really found was a
243
::very good support for me.
244
::And I then went to that individual and
245
::explained what was going on and asked her if
she would play the role if I broached it with
246
::my boss, which she very luckily agreed to do.
247
::And it was done in a non threatening way.
248
::So it was kind of made clear that I was
struggling and that she wants to make sure
249
::that we can all get through this with a
positive outcome.
250
::So it was a very positive thing.
251
::But you know what?
252
::I often think back.
253
::I mean, I sometimes wonder where I got the
254
::courage to do it.
255
::But I think you get to a point, you know you
256
::have to do something or you're not going to
get back to where you need to be.
257
::MaryLayo: You mentioned a little while ago how
your counselor said, you're now on probation
258
::and you just have to continue doing what
you're doing, otherwise you can slip back.
259
::So talk me through how your second experience
of burnout was and what may have led to that.
260
::So what was life like before and then what
then happened to trigger it again?
261
::Karen: So, you know what?
I think what happens is you get through this
262
::process.
263
::I mean, work becomes manageable.
264
::In fact, I'm going to say it was better than
that.
265
::I think it was the best thing that happened,
getting the mediator involved, because I then
266
::started to really enjoy my work again.
267
::I loved what I was doing, and life was great.
268
::I mean, it really was.
269
::And then what happened was I moved away from
270
::the academic environment and I went and joined
my husband in our own business.
271
::And then the pressures just started coming
again because not only are you trying to run
272
::your own business, keep all your clients
happy, but at the same time you're trying to
273
::professionally develop yourself.
274
::Plus, I took on professional organization
275
::responsibilities.
276
::So again, it just became a case of trying to
277
::make everybody happy and always trying to do
everything well with just not enough internal
278
::resources at the time.
279
::And then on top of all of that, um, I just
280
::decided I wanted to study again.
281
::And I studied again, not so much because I
282
::wanted to, but I actually knew it needed to be
done.
283
::And without taking something out else out of
my life, I just added something else in.
284
::MaryLayo: I did it on top.
285
::Karen: Yeah, right.
286
::MaryLayo: Okay, so you talked about being in
that place where you had an interest again in
287
::what you were doing.
288
::You changed in terms of your role and
289
::gradually started taking up more stuff, and
then you decided to do a course.
290
::How did you get to that place again?
Was it really about losing that passion, that
291
::interest?
How did you get to that place of realizing
292
::that you were burnt out.
293
::Karen: Again?
I think I had started to see the signs that I
294
::wasn't enjoying what I was doing.
295
::I was seeing it as an effort to get up and go
296
::to work.
297
::I started dreading that people would ask me to
298
::do things because again, you're self employed,
so you don't want to say no, but at the same
299
::time, you know that you should actually be
putting them off.
300
::It was when I started realizing that, you know
what?
301
::Do I really want to do this job anymore?
That I thought, I'm right back to where I was
302
::before.
303
::But unfortunately, now I was the employer as
304
::well as the person with burnout because I was
creating my own organizational culture and not
305
::putting in place all those controls that I'd
actually learned before.
306
::MaryLayo: Okay, so then you got to that place
of realization.
307
::What did you do to turn it around?
Did you go back to the counselor or what did
308
::you do?
309
::Karen: Do you know what?
I did go not to the same counselor, because
310
::I'd moved away.
311
::Yes.
312
::But I did go to another counselor, and I knew
I had the skills.
313
::I just had to gain that strength again to put
those things in place and to be able to say to
314
::clients, no, as much as you want me to do the
work, I don't have the capacity right now.
315
::But one of the things is you take on all this
work and it seems fine because you don't
316
::really see the bigger picture.
317
::And one of the things that I started doing was
318
::having one calendar.
319
::Only at that stage, you could have your work
320
::calendar, your social calendar, a calendar
hanging on the wall.
321
::And one of the things that I started to do was
consolidate them and put everything on one
322
::calendar.
323
::And one of the things I was told was respect
324
::your personal space as much as your workspace.
325
::MaryLayo: Okay.
326
::Karen: Which at that stage for me was very
important that I was able to give myself some
327
::time and not continually, relentlessly give
into these work demands that kind of sitting
328
::there.
329
::MaryLayo: I know that of you because we've
worked together.
330
::I know that of you in terms of how that tool,
that calendar really does help you.
331
::It really is a tool that you use.
332
::And that's a key way of you not going back to
333
::that place.
334
::In terms of burnout.
335
::I guess in your professional career, maybe
even in your personal life, you may have come
336
::across someone who, for various reasons, they
find it difficult to remove themselves from a
337
::toxic environment or lifestyle because of, for
example, risk.
338
::Of losing their job or not having progression
in their career or being intimidated by, let's
339
::just say, colleagues or a boss in the
workplace.
340
::So I'm interested to hear what your thoughts
are and if there is any advice that you've
341
::given or you would give to people in those
situations, particularly because you didn't
342
::remove yourself from that toxic environment,
but you still were able to get through it.
343
::So, yeah.
344
::Are you able to sum up anything or what you
345
::would say to them or what you have said to
people in the past in that situation.
346
::Karen: I have.
347
::I've had some good friends who I moved out of
348
::academics and they stayed there.
349
::And one of them in particular comes to mind
350
::who was really struggling in a very similar
toxic environment at work.
351
::Demanding Boss was actually on a part time
post but was being expected to put out full
352
::time outputs.
353
::And I would often go and sit with her.
354
::And first of all, I shared my experience with
her and tried to get her to make some of those
355
::changes that were so helpful for when I went
through Burnout and she wouldn't do them.
356
::And then I would say to her, why aren't you
doing it?
357
::And she'd just say, well, it's not the kind of
environment where you can go and say something
358
::like that.
359
::And we worked.
360
::And then I started to try and get her to cut
back and spend more time on herself.
361
::But realistically, she unfortunately doesn't
have that strength to resolve those
362
::organizational issues.
363
::And I think for her it was a much bigger
364
::problem, it was a much bigger department, more
people involved.
365
::And eventually I said to her, the only way
you're going to get through this is by walking
366
::away.
367
::And she did walk away and she is in such a
368
::better space.
369
::In fact, you know what?
370
::It's almost as if that was a nudge that she
needed to make a career change because she is
371
::now flourishing in a far healthier
environment.
372
::MaryLayo: Yeah, no, thanks for sharing that,
Karen.
373
::Because one of the things that comes to mind
is how there are people who they may be in
374
::such a critical situation position and it's
not helping their health and they see no other
375
::way out.
376
::They see it as they have to stay in there
377
::because that's what's paying their bills.
378
::How can they walk out when they've got so
379
::many, I guess, financial commitments with
people from Burnout, from what I pick up,
380
::they're also very ambitious and very driven
people.
381
::So it doesn't sit well with them to associate
themselves to being someone that walks out.
382
::So it's good to hear that it's worked out well
for your friend.
383
::Karen: One of the things that we need to
remember is that if that problem is not
384
::resolved and you continue to be the victim of
the circumstances that you find yourself in,
385
::it is going to end up being a situation where
you have long term health issues that are
386
::going to change the quality of your life
forever.
387
::I mean, it's very clear that people develop
respiratory, cardiovascular, serious
388
::musculoskeletal disorders as a consequence of
this unrelenting stress.
389
::And as hard as it is to make the decision at
the time, you've got to think about what are
390
::the consequences going to be if we don't
resolve this?
391
::I mean, I was foolishly one of those people in
the early days who thought it'll pass.
392
::But you know, an organizational culture is not
something that just changes you need to work
393
::through that.
394
::So, yeah, I know it's hard, but sometimes you
395
::have to just make that call and walk away.
396
::I think that's where my faith then kind of did
397
::help me as well, because I've got this
approach that if one door closes, another door
398
::will open.
399
::And I know that sounds very contradictory, but
400
::I worked through my first experience.
401
::My second experience wasn't as bad as the
402
::first one in terms of symptoms, and I had a
better understanding, but at the same time, I
403
::knew what I had to walk away from with the
understanding that it would be for the better
404
::and I would get the spiritual support that I
needed to get through it.
405
::But that comes with maturity, doesn't does it?
406
::MaryLayo: Does. Karen, are there any tips or
other pieces of advice that you would give to
407
::someone who may be listening and is currently
experiencing burnout?
408
::Is there anything else you'd want to share?
409
::Karen: I think the most important thing is for
people who can relate to this kind of syndrome
410
::is go and speak to somebody.
411
::Have open, honest communication with people
412
::that you trust.
413
::You need to start by talking it through so
414
::that you can actually find that resolution.
415
::That resolution may come through.
416
::Just getting moral support from people to give
you the courage to address the situation at
417
::work.
418
::It might be that you again need counseling
419
::like I did to get through it.
420
::But the bottom line is, it's not just going to
421
::go away.
422
::You need to acknowledge that it's a problem
423
::that needs to be worked through so that you at
the end of it, are going to actually be a
424
::healthy individual.
425
::You know what one of the important things is?
426
::There's a family around you.
427
::Your employer will replace you the day after
428
::you leave.
429
::Your family will never replace you.
430
::So kind of remember that that there are
important people on the other side of you who
431
::really need you to come through this.
432
::MaryLayo: Well, Karen, I think you've ended
this talk with giving really helpful and
433
::useful and I would say valuable advice and I'm
sure or I'm hoping it will help someone.
434
::So I really appreciate you coming on the show.
435
::Karen, to those of you who are listening, I
436
::hope that there's something you may have been
able to take away from this.
437
::And thank you for joining us and hope to see
you soon on Mary Life Talks.
438
::Karen: Thank you very much, Mary.
439
::MaryLayo: Here's a spiritual wellness tip that
you can meditate on.
440
::It's Colossians, chapter one, verse eleven,
and it reads, may you be strengthened with all
441
::power according to his glorious might, for all
endurance and patience with joy.
442
::Thank you for listening.
443
::MaryLayo: Do follow and join me again next.
444
::MaryLayo: Time on Marylayo Talks Beyond the
Smile.
