Navigating Anger: Understanding Its Role in Mental & Physical Health

MaryLayo: 00:00:01

Welcome to beyond the Smile with me, MaryLayo, a podcast that discusses mental health and spiritual well being. If you like what you hear, please do remember to follow and share.

But before we jump in, there may be episodes that are particularly sensitive for some listeners. And if that applies, then I hope you'll join me whenever you feel ready and able to.

In today's episode, I'm talking to Bronwyn Schwagert, a psychotherapist anger expert who is host of the podcast Angry at the Right Things.

So, given that anger usually has negative connotations, I was keen to find out what quote unquote healthy anger actually means and the connection between anger and mental health challenges. But to start off with, I asked Bronwyn what got her on the road to become a psychotherapist. Let's listen in.

What actually led you to become a psychotherapist and actually specialize in anger management?

Bronwyn: 00:01:06

Yes. Well, I want to clarify. I don't specialize in anger management, but I do specialize in anger.

I consider myself an anger expert, but I don't want ever to help anyone manage their anger. I want them to help to heal their relationship with their anger.

And the reason I make that distinction is because I think a lot of us have heard all kinds of things about managing anger, and it really kind of elicits this, you know, this perspective of anger as bad, and we just have to manage it kind of like a naughty child.

And so my goal is to help my clients and my listeners on my podcast learn that their anger is there for a good reason, that it's valid, that it's there to speak to them, to give them insight and wisdom in the moment, and to learn to channel it out of our body in a healthy way through boundaries, through assertiveness or some type of accountability.

And the way I got to that as a psychotherapist is I actually myself experienced a very debilitating depression, like a depressive episode that, you know, left me looking for a therapist. And I was not a therapist at the time. And I went to many different therapists offices and sat on many different therapist chairs.

And I remember thinking to myself, you know, Bronwyn, and you are hardly functioning right now, but I still think you would make a better therapist than this person who's supposedly the therapist right now. And so I went back to grad school to become a therapist to get my degree and then get my 3,000 hours.

And in retrospect, you know, after that depressive episode, you know, that one resolved, you know, in a few Months, really. But then I had another very, very pernicious one that lasted much longer. And.

And in retrospect, I see now that both those very severe depressive episodes were the result of my own suppressed anger, or what I call disassociated anger. And if I had had the wherewithal at that time, at those times, to just know it's okay to feel angry.

So I'll share a little bit about the second depressive episode, which kind of how it all was catalyzed was I was starting out as an intern to get my hours as a therap intern. And the supervisor and the clinic director, he was the same person. And he wanted me to see a couple as my very first client to see a married couple.

And that if you know anything about, you know, therapy, you know, seeing a married couple is hard. There are a lot of licensed therapists who will not see couples or treat them because you need special training. You need to know what you're doing.

You could do a lot of damage, and it will hurt you, too, because you feel like you're failing, and you can burn out very quickly. And so he wanted me to see a couple as my very first client ever. And I said, no, I'm not ready to do that.

And he said, that's what you're going to do. And instead of me at that time being a grownup and saying, you know what, Bronwyn?

It's okay to be angry at your supervisor, Dave, who is asking you to do something that you're not ready for, and then he's not listening to you when you say you're not ready. It's okay to be angry. It's okay to feel that right here in your chest and to channel it out of your body by saying, you know what, Dave?

I don't know that this center is a good fit for me. I think I might need to find someplace else to do my hours because you're not listening to me. And this is not good. This is not a good fit.

And that's what I should have done. And I did not do that because I wanted to. To win Dave's approval.

I looked to him as like a father figure, even though, ironically, he was probably a decade older than me, if, you know, if that. But because he was an authority figure, I wanted to win his approval, just like I wanted to still win my father's approval at that time in my life.

So I betrayed myself. I didn't feel my anger. I disassociated from it. I told myself. I talked Myself out of it, as many of us do. I said, you know what? It's okay.

Maybe you are gonna be fine seeing a married couple as your first client. Maybe you'll learn as you go. Okay, So I saw the married couple. I didn't learn anything. I did do a lot of damage to them.

And I started questioning if I even wanted to be a therapist. It was horrible. So, long story short, I should have channeled that anger. I should have. First, I should have known that that anger was valid.

I should have known it's okay to feel that when someone refuses to listen to you. Second, I should have channeled that anger out of my body with a pain boundary or assertive speech.

So that's really what my expertise is, and that's what I want all of us to do, is to heal our relationship with anger versus managing it, which I think a lot of us do, by talking ourselves out of the anger to begin with, if that makes sense.

MaryLayo: 00:06:17

It does. I mean, and even that intro, to me, really is quite intriguing.

And it kind of unveils the different layers that people may have to navigate to be able to prevent that anger or heal appropriately.

Because, number one, the fact that you were young or, you know, much younger, less experienced, there is a level of boldness and assertiveness that comes with age, that comes with experience. And even some older people wouldn't necessarily be so assertive if they wanted to achieve something. And that was part of.

That was part of the path for them achieving and getting those hours, you know, so it's. It's a bit of a conundrum. And yes, I would have even patted you on the back to even challenge. To challenge your.

Let's call it supervisor to begin with. Yeah, that's a quite a bold move. And I can understand why you wouldn't keep pushing back. Yes.

So how you would deal with that appropriately requires wisdom as well as boldness and, you know, all sorts of things. And like you said, creating boundaries.

Bronwyn: 00:07:37

Well, I think all of that is true, and I appreciate that perspective. Mary, Leo.

I think, too, that most of us have a very dysfunctional relationship with our anger because we were conditioned as very young children to not be angry, to just have a happy face, to be afraid of our anger, because it might make mommy give us a silent treatment. And we can't tolerate that as a young child.

To think that our attachment figure might be separating or distancing herself from us, that's intolerable. And so we learn to not show anger. We learn to stuff it down. We learn to betray ourselves.

We learn that we are responsible for other people's feelings and not for our own. And all those things are. Are actually not true because we are not responsible for other people's feelings, but we are responsible for our own.

I like to say to my clients, we might believe we're responsible for other people for their feelings, and we might want to, you know, act like we are, but we will die trying to be responsible for their feelings, because it's actually impossible to be responsible for anyone else's feelings. We are responsible to other people always, but never for them. And that's a very big difference. We are always responsible for our feelings.

MaryLayo: 00:09:07

And what would you say? You've kind of touched on it. What would you say are the common misconceptions when it comes to anger that you often encounter in your practice?

Bronwyn: 00:09:18

Yeah, so I would say majority of people who seek out therapy are what I would term on the codependent spectrum. So codependents are the least in touch with their anger.

They have learned to be the good girl, the good little boy who does everyone, you know, makes everyone happy all the time. We could call them pleasers. They're the people pleasers.

And they have learned to kind of just cut off their own relationship with anger from a very young age because they probably did have a parent who either shamed them or for their anger, or gave them the silent treatment or distanced themself in some way. And so the template in their brain created this. This association between me showing anger and losing my attachment figure.

Like being all alone utterly, like beating, being all by herself or himself. And so that that template survives and it lives on in us. And so we. We learn, don't be angry, because that will make me all alone.

And we can't tolerate that. And so it replaced throughout our lives where we're feeling responsible for other people's feelings, and it ends up making us sick.

MaryLayo: 00:10:33

That's interesting. So would you say then that. Let's call them people pleasers or. Yeah, yeah.

Would you say then that they are overly sensitive to caring about other people's feelings and therefore not wanting to bear the wrath of anger or raise anger, and therefore they struggle to have that healthy relationship with anger, and therefore how do they tend to respond to anger and what should they be doing differently?

Bronwyn: 00:11:17

Yes, I would say people who are pleasers, codependents, their goal in life is to make everyone else around them happy. And that sounds like they're selfless. And I actually heard someone say this recently that they used to think, oh, a Pleaser.

A codependent is a selfless person. But. But if you really look at the underlying motive, it's selfish.

Because when everyone around them is happy, they are happy, and they can feel like they can rest. So it's really about them. They want everyone to approve of them.

And I also call pleasers approval addicts because they are addicted to winning everyone's approval. And you know, the example I gave, where I was at that clinic starting my hours, I wanted Dave's approval. I was an approval addict.

I was determined to win his approval. So I betrayed myself. I didn't let myself feel my anger. I didn't have that boundary. But that never gives us any kind of satisfaction.

At the end of the day, you know, when we do get that great grade on the exam and that professor's recognition, when we do get our boss's recognition, when we do win that parent's approval, it lasts for, like, a day, you know, and it never really satisfies. And that addiction continues and we betray ourselves. And then, like I said, it makes us sick because, you know, depression is sickness.

A lot of my clients have very severe anxiety. Anxiety is also the same thing as depression in that it is suppressed anger that is residing in our bodies.

It is fermenting, if you will, in our bodies and is making us sick. Also, a lot of clients have headaches. They'll have chronic migraines. They'll have a lot of GI gut issues, very severe.

They'll have insomnia, chronic pain, even autoimmune disorders, all of these things. And studies show especially.

I recently did some research that showed a lot of studies are showing that autoimmune disorders are related to, you know, a lack of words, a lack of talking or expressing our feelings. And I, you know, really see that as suppressed and anger, because that's the one feeling we don't talk about when we need to.

And it just, you know, lives in our bodies and haunts us and makes us sick.

MaryLayo: 00:13:47

So then, like, even when you're describing this, I had, like, scenarios in my mind based on conversations I've had with people in my network when they're describing how angry they are and the. Let's call it the symptoms that you've just described. I'd never quite associated it with the anger per se.

I'd associated it with other things like stress. But I'm now seeing the connection more clearly because of what you've described.

How would someone with that underlining, let's call it chronic anger because it's been there for a While.

And they haven't healed from that anger or, you know, address that anger effectively, how would someone in that position, what would you advise them to do?

Bronwyn: 00:14:44

Yeah, yeah, I would start, you know, and what I do as a therapist is I start with, let's listen to this anger. What is it trying to communicate to you? So I always start with, when did this chronic condition start?

You know, when did the autoimmune disease start? When did the insomnia start? When did the migraine start?

And that usually tells us around that time, like, oh, that's right after you moved in with your boyfriend. Interesting. Let's look at that.

You know, or that's right after you swore to yourself that you would end that friendship and you didn't and you're still hanging out with this person, or that's when you took this new job, you know, so it's relational. It's always relational. We can't have anger without a relationship. It's always stemming from a relationship to someone else.

And it could be a lot of different relationships, but it's usually the one closest to us. And it doesn't make that person necessarily all bad. It just means that we are not expressing our anger.

So on the flip side, I want to say that, you know, my husband, I would say he's very codependent in many ways, and he's been working on it. But what I always tell him is, Steve, push back.

Like, if you feel like I am bullying you and I'm being more assertive than you are, tell me, push back. I want to hear what you think and what you feel. It's not fair to me when you keep it all inside and then you think, I'm a bully.

I don't want to be a bully.

So there's actually a lot of relational dynamics where I've worked with my clients, where the minute they start having a voice with their partner, some of the partners respond, great. And they're like, thank you for telling this to me. I didn't know you felt like that. Some don't, but we always assume they won't.

And that's the bad thing, like, because we've never done it. And so I just want to, like, put that out there, that it really can be a win, win situation.

MaryLayo: 00:16:44

And I guess that there must be ways of.

Especially if you're not someone that's not used to it, there must be ways of broken approaching the subject or sharing or, well, being a bit more free and being more open in terms of how you're feeling. Because I Was. I'm also reminded, based on what you've said, that I've been accused in the past of not.

Not being confrontational or not liking confrontation. And it's reminding me actually that that's probably because I don't want there to be some sort of, you know, blow up as a result.

And therefore, by trying to run away from a potential situation or seeing it bigger than the reality, it's not actually the best way of going about it. And yeah, it's just about reframing the mind, really, so that you can deal with it in a better way.

Bronwyn: 00:17:43

It is somewhat reframing the mind, but I'm gonna add. Cause what I do on my podcast and with my clients is I do what I call inner child work. And.

And it's really about healing that relationship with our inner child. Because if we just come at it from a mental perspective, that's not going to be enough.

You know, our adult self lives up here, you know, where our rational self is, but it's really, you know, our core in our body. That's where our young self lives. And our young self still sees, you know, maybe the angry sibling that was spanked all the time and is terrified to.

To make mom and dad angry and is reacting from that in the present. And so we have to go back to, you know, young Mary Leo. We have to help her know that adult Mary Leo is going to protect her now and give her a voice.

And adult Mary Leo is never going to abandon her or shame her. And she's safe now because she's never gonna be alone because she has her adult self to care for her.

So we really have to heal that if it's gonna really, you know, be full.

MaryLayo: 00:18:58

And I wanted to ask about the different types of anger.

So before we started, I was thinking to myself, hmm, I don't tend to be someone who, you know, gets angry and certainly not very quickly or very often. I would probably, yeah, if I'm hungry or if I hadn't slept you so many hours, I'll get a bit hangry or, you know, I'd get a bit more irritable.

But I'm not someone who tends to be angry. But now you've given me some food for thought because of maybe, yes, suppressing that or not allowing myself to be free to be angry.

But I was gonna ask, are there different types of anger? So, for example, a tendency to be more passive aggressive as opposed to being someone who's explos. And is that associated with a person's.

Bronwyn: 00:19:59

Character or what yeah, those are good questions. So actually, I'm writing some podcast content right now about reactive anger.

And I think that reactive anger gets the majority of our attention, like when we think, oh, that's a really angry person. That's a hothead. Have you heard that term, hothead? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we think of someone who has what I would call reactive anger.

And reactive anger is when someone is triggered.

And usually they're triggered because they're hearing something that is getting close to something very sensitive because it's true, and they don't want to acknowledge that. So if I have a client and I say something, I reflect something to them.

Oh, well, you told me in the past, blah, blah, blah, but now you're saying this, and I see a lot of anger very suddenly. It's because they don't want to acknowledge what they told me in the past. They want to be in denial of what they told me.

And that's why they're telling me something different right now. And I might see a lot of reactive anger, but that is actually a tell, if you will, that it is true when you see reactive anger.

And then there's just the healthy anger, which is like me in that situation where my boss, Dave, isn't listening to me and I'm about to do something that is going to hurt myself and other people unnecessarily, and that's like a healthy anger. That's not me, you know, fighting the truth. That's not me being triggered. That's me.

Just like it's not okay to just completely disregard where my limits are as a new professional in this field. So I think we have to make that distinction.

I find that people who are just the hotheads are people who have a lot of anger from their early childhood. They have never processed, and they. They don't want to process.

And when we try to sequester our anger, when we try to compartmentalize it and we don't want to admit it, we don't want to visit it, we don't want to process it. It will leak out. It will leak out. And, you know, with a hothead type person, it leaks out with everyone around them.

But with some of us, it leaks out in that. That we're just not nice to our kids.

Like, it leaks out on our children, it leaks out on our pets, on the people vulnerable, most vulnerable on our spouse.

And it's not fair to those people in our life because we need to deal with the original source of the anger, and we're not being responsible for our anger. And then I would say, as far as passive aggressiveness, those are people who have resentment at you.

You know, if they're being passive aggressive to you, but they're not being responsible with their original resentment. So, you know, for example, I will be passive aggressive with my husband, and then I'll be like, oh, why am I doing this right now?

The real reason is because I'm still resentful about what you said yesterday, and I haven't addressed that. And so if we find ourselves doing that, we need to stop and go, this isn't fair to me. It's not fair to them.

It's okay to be angry at them, but not for this right now.

This is indicative of something else that I have resentment about, and I need to really reflect about that and learn how to be responsible with that original anger. So we can either resolve this or, you know, if this is a relationship I shouldn't be in, then, you know, leave it.

MaryLayo: 00:23:35

And I'm.

I'm wondering if there are ways, and I'm assuming there must be, if there are ways of people being able to just call it, reflect and deal with it themselves rather than seek professional help. So what kind of strategies or ways would someone.

Could someone take to deal with what they are sensing and noticing about themselves when it comes to anger?

Bronwyn: 00:24:11

Yeah, well, can I do a shameless promo for my podcast? Because that's called. It's called Angry at the Right Things, and it's all about how to heal our relationship with our anger.

But in addition to that, I also. I think I'll just give an example. A couple years ago, I got really triggered, and I got really angry at my daughter, and we got in a fight.

And about an hour later, when I'd calmed down, I just sat in the chair and I just said to myself, I'm going to reflect on what happened. Like, I. I lost myself. You know, we all get like that, where we're like, what just happened?

So I just reflected on the whole scenario, the whole conversation, and how I got that angry so quickly. And I realized during that reflection, okay, so I was triggered because I can't handle silence when I'm in the presence of other people.

And she and I were both in the kitchen. It was silent. So I started asking her questions, which is what I learned to do as a very young child, so there wouldn't be silence.

Probably what made me a therapist, by the way, too. But so I started asking her questions.

Most people love to be asked questions, and they answer, but my daughter is that One person who will not answer my question. So she's like, I don't want to talk right now.

And that silence to me, because it is so emblematic of so much of my childhood and was so painful, it feels like rejection. And so I got angry with her for not responding to my questions because it felt rejecting. And so I realized, okay, that is my trigger.

That is not fair to her. She is not responsible for my trigger. If I equate silence with rejection, that's my problem, that's not hers.

And she is absolutely entitled to not answer my questions. That's okay. That's fair.

And so I just kind of, you know, and then this is the thing I will do with my clients and I do on my podcast, is I will have my listeners close their eyes and feel what they felt in their body when they are triggered. So for me, that silence, I just felt in my body what it made me feel.

And as we focus on that sensation, we can just let our minds float back to the the earliest time we felt that same sensation.

And for me, I did that exercise and it brought me back to when I was 3 years old and just the silence of being with my mom in her presence, but no conversation, no talking, no eye contact, no nothing for hours and hours and hours. So I was able then to do what I call an integration exercise, where I close my eyes, I picture little three year old Bronwyn.

I imagine myself going to her in that memory and getting down on her level and looking her in the eyes.

And I say, little Bronwyn, I see you, and I see how rejected you feel from your mom by her never, you know, engaging with you at all, all day long, every day. And I need you to see what I see and know what I know.

And I need you to see that all the shame that you feel from her chronic rejection is not your shame, it's hers. And so we're going to put all of that shame in this big cardboard box right now.

And we're going to return to owner, we're going to give it to her and say, here you go, mom, this is yours. I always thought this was mine, but now I'm realizing to be a mother who never engages with their little child, that's your shame.

And so I'm returning it to owner. And I'm realizing I am not the shameful one here. And if you reject me, that's on you. That is indicative of a you problem, not a me problem.

And so that's kind of what I will do in integration exercises. And again, I do this on my podcast for the listeners.

I want them to do these for themselves because once we start to integrate and heal that relationship with our inner child. Today, this is a few years later, when I'm in the presence of other people now and it's silent, I'm okay, I'm okay.

I'm not having to talk to myself the whole time and say, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay. I'm just okay.

MaryLayo: 00:28:37

And Bronwyn, can I ask, when you did that, let's call it exercise, did you do it? Was it a one off time? Or did you keep doing it until you felt that release and better and different?

Bronwyn: 00:28:53

So with that, each memory, you can just do it once and it will remain the fruit of it will last forever, I have found. But there's often very.

There's other memories where you have to go back to other times where you felt shame or rejected by mainly an attachment figure.

MaryLayo: 00:29:14

Interesting. So I want to ask about something you kind of like alluded to earlier.

As a child, especially back in the days, the general thinking was speak when you're spoken to, seen and not heard. And I know that times have changed.

And by that I mean, like Gen Z generation, even the younger ones, they tend to be a lot more open and free to speak in, like, especially in Western cultures.

Bronwyn: 00:29:53

Yes.

MaryLayo: 00:29:54

So have you tended to, I don't know, have you noticed some sort of trend when it comes to issues of younger generations compared to older generations, when it comes to anger or, you know. Yeah. Have you noticed anything emerging over. Over the years?

Bronwyn: 00:30:16

I absolutely have. So I'm in my mid-50s, and I am very encouraged by what I've seen. And I don't know if you've ever heard of the baby book. It was called Dr.

Spock's Baby Book. It came out in this. It was published in the 60s, it was a bestseller where this medical doctor published this book for women with infants.

And in the book he said, moms, trust your intuition.

And that's, I think, what made it a bestseller, because women before that were taught to let the baby cry it out and that the baby will manipulate them if they don't. And all this stuff. And I think they knew intuitively that doesn't feel right.

But that's what they were told to do by all of the, quote, professionals. And so here, this doctor publishes this book and it's affirming their intuition. And. And so it blew up.

But that was in the 60s, and I've seen just kind of like this movement kind of unfold and even become exponential in the last few years, where now that's considered normal and healthy by the majority of people. And things really have changed. Where parenting, it's about attuning to our children, which means listening. It's about validating feelings.

Feelings aren't to be judged. They're not. We don't see them as threatening, but we can just validate. You know what, little Johnny, I don't blame you for being angry.

Cause I'm not giving you the cookie. That's okay. Doesn't mean you're gonna get the cookie. But you can be angry. You can use your words and say, I'm angry, Mommy.

So just things have shifted so much from when I was a kid. Maybe when you were a kid, we weren't allowed to be angry exactly like you're saying. So it's very, very encouraging for me.

Human development, you know, what's considered normal have very much changed.

MaryLayo: 00:32:15

And I guess that you have encountered maybe clients, individuals who are at the receiving end of anger because of their partners, the relationships. That's quite tricky position to be in. How do you tend to, I guess, navigate that as a professional?

What advice do you tend to give in those situations?

Bronwyn: 00:32:44

If they're on the receiving end? Yeah, I mean, they have anger. They're just not usually, you know, channeling out of their bodies. So, yes, it's there and it.

And oftentimes, you know, again, I. The most of my clients will have severe anxiety. Some will have ocd, but that's all anger in their bodies. That's stuck.

So, yeah, I would say, you know, like I said before, some people, as they learn to push back, they learn that the partner is happier than they've ever been. Because I feel like that partner's anger was really trying to get them to open up.

And when my clients start to open up and have emotional vocabulary, the partner's happier and they're getting along better. So sometimes it's, you know, it's surprising. Oftentimes, sometimes they'll have to leave that partner.

Sometimes they'll have to leave the job, the workplace. But sometimes they hold their boss accountable and they're heard and they can document all those things.

So whatever the outcome, though, each client is empowered. It's like they're kind of reclaiming their lives. And it's. It's a beautiful thing to witness.

And I'm so thankful that I have found this occupation of becoming a psychotherapist later in life, because it is like witnessing a miracle. It's Kind of like watching a flower, you know, kind of blossom.

Is seeing someone really reclaim their lives, connect to their anger, starting to trust themselves and to empower themselves by having a voice.

MaryLayo: 00:34:25

On that note, what would you say to someone who's listening now and they recognize that they do have anger issues? Yeah. What would you say? I feel I almost know what you're gonna say, actually.

Bronwyn: 00:34:41

What am I gonna say? Tell me.

MaryLayo: 00:34:43

You might refer to your podcast.

Bronwyn: 00:34:46

Oh, I won't again. I've already maximized that.

MaryLayo: 00:34:49

Okay. Yeah. What would you say to someone who's listening and they're thinking, you know what? I didn' really pay much attention to this issue.

But hearing you, I. I feel like I need to do something about it. Yeah. What's your parting words to someone who's listening? And.

Bronwyn: 00:35:10

Well, I'll give another example of my own life. So I struggled with insomnia for about 30 years from around age 20 to around age 50.

And I now view insomnia, you know, like, said that if we have suppressed anger that we're dissociating from, it makes us sick. So that was one way. It made me very sick. I'm a very, very healthy person, or I should say health conscious person.

My former career was as a nutritionist, so I ate super well, I exercised really well. But if you can't sleep, you know, you just. There's nothing you can do, and you're just not really functional.

And so for about 30 years, on and off, but a lot of on, I had insomn.

And when I, the last few years started to really wake up to my own, you know, seeing my own father for who he really is, which is a monster, I'm sad to say, and kind of finally saying, you know what? I don't need his approval because I'm going to give that to myself now.

And learning to integrate with little Bronwyn and giving her my approval and then being able to say, I don't need this man to give me his approval anymore. I have nothing to prove anymore. And really seeing him for who he is and then feeling that anger, of course, is a big part of that.

And then I wrote him some emails holding him accountable for documented things he's done throughout my life in the recent past and in the distant past, and said, here you go. If you want to continue to have a relationship with me moving forward, I need to hear an apology.

I need you to own all this, and I need you to change and become a safe person. And if you don't, we don't have A future. And I really hope you do. But I can't force that. And he chose not to, of course.

And so it's been now, you know, several years since I've spoken with him or seen him. But that's when my insomnia and I was able to discontinue all the medication. I have slept since then like a baby.

I can take a nap now like a normal person. You know, it's given me back my life. So I would say our bodies are speaking to us always.

If we start to listen, if we start to attune to them and recognize that what they're saying, their feeling is valid and be responsible for those feelings of anger with people in our lives, we will come to life like never before.

MaryLayo: 00:37:51

You know what, Bronwyn? I'm gonna say thank you for what you've shared.

Cause I think you've shared a lot that would give not just myself, but those who are listening, plenty of food for thought.

Not to overlook certain things that you've noticed, maybe physically, you know, certain symptoms that you probably point down or link to something else. And really to reflect on that and have a more, hopefully more fruitful and healthier life as a process as a result.

So thank you so much for sharing your experiences and your expertise. One the of comes to anger.

Bronwyn: 00:38:34

You're welcome, MaryLayo, though. Thank you for having me.

MaryLayo: 00:38:40

Here's a spiritual wellness tip for you. Meditate on Ephesians, chapter 4, verse 26. And the message version reads, go ahead and be angry.

You do well to be angry, but don't use your anger as fuel for revenge. And don't stay angry angry, don't go to bed angry. Don't give the devil that kind of foothold in your life. Thanks for listening.

Do follow and join me again next time on beyond the Smile with MaryLayo.